Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:44 pm
This is a question to get a concensus on units. I absolutely know that personal preference is a huge factor that cannot be qualified or quantified (for example no-one knows why Shunka keeps using Rorsh & Brine) but I would like to get players opinions on units for lists.
For example a new Cygnar player comes along and chooses a couple of Warcasters. He then gets the JWC, Squire, GMCA and whatever else takes his fancy. A couple of warjacks follow but what then? Can his choice be formulaic? The reason why I ask is that in this interim pre MKII phase it is units more than anything else that determine standings in tournaments and serious leagues. What does the new player do?
Looking at it analytically:
**Cygnar**
Meta: Shooty List
Warcasters: Caine, Haley, Stryker, Kraye, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Long Gunners
2ndary Unit: Gun Mages/Black 13th
Meta: Attrition List
Warcasters: Darius, Haley, Nemo, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Storm Lances
2ndary Unit: Precursor Knights
Meta: Assassination List
Warcasters: Stryker, Caine, Haley, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Black 13th
2ndary Unit: Rangers
Now this is not exact and definitely up for discussion - the purpose for starting this is that I have started Menoth and I am not looking to buy every model but still have enough models to play different metagame styles. In terms of Cygnar for example I would only ever use Storm Blades over stormguard thematically if I wanted a funky looking eStryker list and maybe not even then. To my mind there is no meta where Stormblades would be primary unit. To defend a point stormguard and PKs have far better tools, for attacking storm Lances are much better as are sword knights.
As the expansions increase a player may want to cherry pick units not to have a single uber army but to have a variety of styles that are supported by the best units for that style. You could argue that after buying Trollkin Champs one would never need Warriors but it is obvious they cannot be compared as they are for purely different purposes but Stormblades and Stormguard can be compared when you examine their stat line and strengths.
If we look at the following cryx list;
Lich Lord Terminus
Leviathan
Captain Rengrave
Black Ogrun Boarding Party (5)
Blackbane's Ghost Raiders (10)
Revenant Cannon Crew
Revenant Crew of the Atramentous (10)
Satyxis Raiders (10) w/Sea Witch
Thematically it is great - all undead piratey but it would never be fielded unless the players purely wanted to play thematically. There are better models to play in order to achieve lasting power, assassination or ranged combat. Thus it should be possible to create some kind of table for new players looking to get into the game without 'throwing money away' and then when they know what they want to play they can go for the more specialist units.
As I stated earlier my reason for starting this thread is that I am looking to put together a Menoth List that I can play in different ways but at the same time will not be a walkover in a serious scrap.
Warcasters are not a problem. I don't particularly like Amon or the Harbinger. Jacks wise I will go revengers, devouts, redeemers and I a flirting with the guardian and castigator from the heavies. Menoth's solos are great but it is units that I really come unstuck. Using the logic above I look at the different types of games and feel that almost half of the units could be declared redundant in anything other than themed lists. To illustrate; if you look at Idrians, Vengers, Bastions (arguably, as cheaper than Vengers) and Zealots you really cover all the bases (attrition, assassination etc) Menoth need. You could possibly add Flameguard for cheap souls and shieldwall but Cleansers, Deliverers, Knights Exemplar and Errants are pretty much redundant as all the other units do the same things ony better. Gravus helps all exemplars but with Vengers, the Visigoth and Bastions available to gain these bonuses why crowbar in knights exemplar?
This is of course true of Khador and Cryx but I'm wondering does anything redeem these units? Is it purely for fluff and personal preference?
I am truly interested in the tactical value of Stormblades over Stormguard or Black Ogrun over Bane Knights.
It also goes into Warjack choice but since the prevalence of infantrymachine this is a less pivotal factor in serious games. For Khador once you have the Behemoth, Beast 09 and maybe a destroyer or devastator is any other jack necessary other than as a cool looking model or rather expensive paperweight?
For example a new Cygnar player comes along and chooses a couple of Warcasters. He then gets the JWC, Squire, GMCA and whatever else takes his fancy. A couple of warjacks follow but what then? Can his choice be formulaic? The reason why I ask is that in this interim pre MKII phase it is units more than anything else that determine standings in tournaments and serious leagues. What does the new player do?
Looking at it analytically:
**Cygnar**
Meta: Shooty List
Warcasters: Caine, Haley, Stryker, Kraye, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Long Gunners
2ndary Unit: Gun Mages/Black 13th
Meta: Attrition List
Warcasters: Darius, Haley, Nemo, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Storm Lances
2ndary Unit: Precursor Knights
Meta: Assassination List
Warcasters: Stryker, Caine, Haley, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Black 13th
2ndary Unit: Rangers
Now this is not exact and definitely up for discussion - the purpose for starting this is that I have started Menoth and I am not looking to buy every model but still have enough models to play different metagame styles. In terms of Cygnar for example I would only ever use Storm Blades over stormguard thematically if I wanted a funky looking eStryker list and maybe not even then. To my mind there is no meta where Stormblades would be primary unit. To defend a point stormguard and PKs have far better tools, for attacking storm Lances are much better as are sword knights.
As the expansions increase a player may want to cherry pick units not to have a single uber army but to have a variety of styles that are supported by the best units for that style. You could argue that after buying Trollkin Champs one would never need Warriors but it is obvious they cannot be compared as they are for purely different purposes but Stormblades and Stormguard can be compared when you examine their stat line and strengths.
If we look at the following cryx list;
Lich Lord Terminus
Leviathan
Captain Rengrave
Black Ogrun Boarding Party (5)
Blackbane's Ghost Raiders (10)
Revenant Cannon Crew
Revenant Crew of the Atramentous (10)
Satyxis Raiders (10) w/Sea Witch
Thematically it is great - all undead piratey but it would never be fielded unless the players purely wanted to play thematically. There are better models to play in order to achieve lasting power, assassination or ranged combat. Thus it should be possible to create some kind of table for new players looking to get into the game without 'throwing money away' and then when they know what they want to play they can go for the more specialist units.
As I stated earlier my reason for starting this thread is that I am looking to put together a Menoth List that I can play in different ways but at the same time will not be a walkover in a serious scrap.
Warcasters are not a problem. I don't particularly like Amon or the Harbinger. Jacks wise I will go revengers, devouts, redeemers and I a flirting with the guardian and castigator from the heavies. Menoth's solos are great but it is units that I really come unstuck. Using the logic above I look at the different types of games and feel that almost half of the units could be declared redundant in anything other than themed lists. To illustrate; if you look at Idrians, Vengers, Bastions (arguably, as cheaper than Vengers) and Zealots you really cover all the bases (attrition, assassination etc) Menoth need. You could possibly add Flameguard for cheap souls and shieldwall but Cleansers, Deliverers, Knights Exemplar and Errants are pretty much redundant as all the other units do the same things ony better. Gravus helps all exemplars but with Vengers, the Visigoth and Bastions available to gain these bonuses why crowbar in knights exemplar?
This is of course true of Khador and Cryx but I'm wondering does anything redeem these units? Is it purely for fluff and personal preference?
I am truly interested in the tactical value of Stormblades over Stormguard or Black Ogrun over Bane Knights.
It also goes into Warjack choice but since the prevalence of infantrymachine this is a less pivotal factor in serious games. For Khador once you have the Behemoth, Beast 09 and maybe a destroyer or devastator is any other jack necessary other than as a cool looking model or rather expensive paperweight?