ETC 2015 - votes

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Telion
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ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Ovde cu kaciti sva glasanja koja budu postavljena kapitenima.
Bilo bi dobro da, posto nemamo u potpunosti formiran tim, barem ljudi koji su prethodnih godina sacinjavali tim daju neko svoje misljenje. Naravno, svi koji su takodje zainteresovani slobodno mogu da podele svoje misljenje.
Let's try a quick poll on what schedule you like best to start the round considering 1hour lunch break and 4.30h long rounds :
a/ 8.00am (0 votes)
b/ 8.30am (2 votes)
c/ 9.00am (3 votes)
d/ 9.30 am (11 votes)

Example:
Friday 9 August 2013
Round 1 : 9.30 am - 2 pm
Round 2 : 3 pm - 7.30 pm
Saturday 10 August 2013
Round 3 : 9.30 am - 2 pm
Round 4 : 3 pm - 7.30 pm
Sunday 11 August 2013
Round 5 : 9.30 am - 2 pm
Round 6 : 3 pm - 7.30 pm
(svi glasovi su bili prebrojani neposredno pre postavljanja Vote-a ovde)
Kako bismo sto pre davali svoj glas, zamolio bih da, kada se okaci neki Vote, se u naredna 2-3-4 dana dogovorimo oko naseg glasa, barem kada su ovakve "manje bitne" stvari u pitanju.
"MISSION SUCCESSFUL! Once again, I...Cato Sicarius..."
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CheMilan
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

9:30 jer ko zna dal ce neko da kasni. Khm khm Bambi... Khm
...pa i nisi bas najbolji...
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Megabaja
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Megabaja »

Ja sam za sto kasniji pocetak, sto zbog kasnjenja, sto zbog vremena za dorucak...
Pamti, pa vrati...

Ignorance is bliss.
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Telion
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

tomepnk wrote:Leave this here until tonight, then vote will go live. Let us know if we missed something/things need changing for this round of voting. It speaks for itself that some of these votes invalidate themselves based on other questions. But to get a clear picture, we ask every captain to answer every voting question even if it isn't directly what you would be gunning for as a team. We need to know how majority rolls with a certain issue.

TO BE CLEAR: NO VOTING YET!

Vote Question 1
----------------
A. Alter the current package with the outcomes of the votes below
B. Straight up vote between serbian pack and last years rulespack

Vote Question 2
---------------
A. Play with current rulespack set of maelstrom cards
B. Play with full rulebook set of maelstrom cards

C. Play with current rulespack set of maelstrom cards but add in another set of 1-6 mission objectives, bringing total cards to 24

Vote Question 3
---------------
A. Include the Relic as a mission
B. Do not include the Relic as a mission

Vote Question 4
---------------
A. Use killpoints in every Round
B. Do not use killpoints in every Round

Vote Question 5
---------------
A. Use killpoints in every mission but reduce their weighing factor
B. Use killpoints in every mission but do not reduce their weighing factor - same as last rulespack
C. Use killpoints in some missions and reduce the weighing factor

D. Use killpoints in some missions but do not reduce the weighing factor
- Weighing factor will be discussed and captain concensus will determine final weighing factor if a reduction is in order

Vote Question 6
---------------
A. If Killpoints are used in some but not all missions, include them in 1 of the missions
B. If Killpoints are used in some but not all missions, include them in 2 of the missions
C. If Killpoints are used in some but not all missions, include them in 3 of the missions
D. If Killpoints are used in some but not all missions, include them in 4 of the missions
E. If Killpoints are used in some but not all missions, include them in 5 of the missions


Vote Question 7
---------------
A. Use the Fighter Ace Upgrade from Shield Of Baal
B. Do not use the Fighter Ace Upgrade from Shield Of Baal

Vote Question 8
---------------
A. A Team may only use each formation once in its army lists
B. No further restrictions on formations

Vote Question 9
---------------
A. Play with levels in ruins at the ETC
B. Play without levels in ruins at the ETC

We didnt include a vote to ban Adamantium Lance or restrict characters since it was voted in the first time and not enough hands were raised for a re-vote on the matter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding killpoints and altering them:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Killpoints presently can be won by a maximum of 8 difference, for instance, 10-2. In this instance Player 1 would have won by 8 kill points (the maximum differential). This would produce a differential of +4/-4, so if the game scored a 10-10 prior to calculating killpoints, it would now be a 14-6. If we want to diminish the impact of killpoints, please let us know your ideas to incorporate them into the current scoring system.
Ovo ce biti uskoro stavljeno na glasanje, a kako se mi spremamo kao da cemo ici, mislim da bi bilo dobro da malo prodiskutujemo (ako se ukaze potreba) o pitanjima koja se ovde postavljaju.
Ono kako bih ja, licno, glasao je:

1. B (s tim da ispravimo ponesto sto se od nas trazi, poput koriscenja samo ETC seta kartica..)
2. C (smanjuje se "randomness" seta kartica, ali opet, mislim da je ok ukljuciti jos dodatnih 6 kartica kako bi set malo "narastao" i time se smanjilo outdeck-ovanje)
3. A (trebali bi da igramo SVE misije)
4. B (preterano je da u svih sest partija budu racunati KP)
5. D (ako ce to biti jako slicno kao u onom nasem setu misija)
6. B ili C (jedini razuman broj misija..sve vise od toga je previse)
7. Ovde mi je apsolutno svejedno, s tim da bih glasao za B cisto da imamo da brinemo o manje stvari (a i reeetko ko to ikada koristi)
8. A (opet, mnoge imucnije reprezentacije ce izvesti, npr. 2 Lance formacije, a mislim da ne treba da pravimo 2+ anti-IK liste, a mogucnosti da mi izvedemo toliko IK su jako male)
9. A (tako je po BRB)
Bilo bi dobro kada bi i ostali pogledali ovo i dali neko svoje misljenje/vidjenje kako bismo, kao tim, trebali da glasamo.
Hvala.
"MISSION SUCCESSFUL! Once again, I...Cato Sicarius..."
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Dzon Vejn
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Dzon Vejn »

Razmislite jos jednom da li zelite relic misiju. To je misija koja u zavisnosti od toga ko ima prvi krug moze da ti izgubi / donese jako, jako puno poena. Mislim da ni jedna druga misija nema tu situaciju da ako igras prvi dobijes / izgubis bas toliko poena.

Takodje, ima bug sa vozilima i flat out-om. A mi smo u timu imali pretezno liste bez vozila, tako da nam to dodatno ne odgovara. Plus neke armije kad jednom izgube relic (npr. time sto igraju drugi), vise nemaju teoretsku sansu da ga povrate. Ja sam protiv demona celu partiju pokusavao da mu preotmem relic i nisam uspeo. Igrao sam drugi naravno. Tau lista nema nacin da uzme i zadrzi taj relic, itd.

Sve ostalo ok.
That was a hazardous consultation of the Libre Mortis my Lord. An ordeal of high and low doom. The moment I approached the book, it bit me most ferociously.
I must appologize for the explosion that blew off the door of The Chamber Unbreachable, but the simultaneous emergence of seventeen demons from the book spine, caused the spiritual detonation in the soul stoned air of the room.
The whole enterprise was an experience most horrendeous. None but I could have endured it. I was almost damned twice. Even now my soul is twisted to a cork screw.
I suggest you keep the state of your soul to yourself, and inform us, instead, what you have gleamed from the Grimoire.

Hatred and prejudice will never be eradicated. And witch hunts will never be about witches. To have a scapegoat - that's the key. Humans always fear the alien, the odd. Once the mages had left Novigrad, folk turned their anger against the other races... and, as they have for ages, branded their neighbors their greatest foes.

And 'cause I was gazillionaire and I liked doing it so much, I cut that grass for free.

Glory to Arstotzka!
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CheMilan
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

slazem se lasice.
A sto se tice relic misije, ako se usvoji da nisu u svakoj misiji kill poeni, onda ce i liste imati vise vozila i unit-a a samim tim ce lakse dolaziti do relic-a. Jedino sto si u pravu da je tesko kad neko strpa u landraider relic da ga preuzmes :(
ili ako ga neki monster pokupi..

ali ako se krece vise od 6 ispada mu reilc. Kako to radi ako ga uneses u vozilo???? :D
...pa i nisi bas najbolji...
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Dzon Vejn »

Ja recimo opet ne bih ubacio ni jedno vozilo koje ne leti :D. Naravno, razumem da ne dele svi moje misljenje.

Relic ne ispada kada radis turbo boost. To je rupa u pravilima. Ne smes da trcis ali smes turbo boost da radis, ako se dobro secam.

To znaci da kada imas prvi krug, vozilo izleti na relic, pokupi ga, i zatim uradi turbo boost unazad. Neki drugi unit stane ispred vozila (za svaki slucaj, da neko ne baci neki ludacki charge roll), i miran si. Ne secam se najbolje, ali ako se ne varam screameri isto mogu da odnesu taj relic sa sobom. Kao i sve ostalo sto ima turbo boost.
That was a hazardous consultation of the Libre Mortis my Lord. An ordeal of high and low doom. The moment I approached the book, it bit me most ferociously.
I must appologize for the explosion that blew off the door of The Chamber Unbreachable, but the simultaneous emergence of seventeen demons from the book spine, caused the spiritual detonation in the soul stoned air of the room.
The whole enterprise was an experience most horrendeous. None but I could have endured it. I was almost damned twice. Even now my soul is twisted to a cork screw.
I suggest you keep the state of your soul to yourself, and inform us, instead, what you have gleamed from the Grimoire.

Hatred and prejudice will never be eradicated. And witch hunts will never be about witches. To have a scapegoat - that's the key. Humans always fear the alien, the odd. Once the mages had left Novigrad, folk turned their anger against the other races... and, as they have for ages, branded their neighbors their greatest foes.

And 'cause I was gazillionaire and I liked doing it so much, I cut that grass for free.

Glory to Arstotzka!
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CheMilan
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

ne moze vozilo da ga skupi, mora cikica, sto znaci da ne moze u prvom potezu i da pobegne jer ne moze da se iskrca i ukrca u istom krugu.
Kad radis Hit n Run i ako dobijes vise od 6 moras da se kreces koliko kaze 3D6 a onda ti ispadne relic. :)
Ne znam samo kako radi sa vozilima u kojima je cikica koji ima relic :D Lasice to bi bilo lepo da pitas?!
...pa i nisi bas najbolji...
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Telion
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Nije bas to tako Nenade, ne mozes da izletis i pokupis sa vozilom Relic. Mora neko da izadje iz tog vozila, a kada jednom izadje, ne moze u istom krugu i ponovo da udje u vozilo. Takodje,
Dzon Vejn wrote:Ja recimo opet ne bih ubacio ni jedno vozilo koje ne leti :D. ...
, ako ubacis Relic u Flyera koji onda poleti, taj Flyer ce se ODMAH srusiti, a Relic ce ti ispasti, sto verovatno ne zelis...

Jedini nacin kako mozes da najbolje izvuces Relic odmah u prvom potezu (a to je meni uspelo u partiji protiv Norvezanina) je da dobijes Warlord Trait da Warlord i 3 non-vehicle unita dobiju infiltrate (ili da vec imas Infiltrate), stanu na Relic (ili negde blizu), a onda imas spremno prazno vozilo koje ce da ih pokupi u prvom krugu, tako da ceo unit zavrsi u 2" od nekih vrata kako bi mogli da se ukrcaju..e onda si na konju. A da ne pricam da postoji jos nekoliko faktora koji uticu na to, kao sto je velicina unita koji infiltrira, nacin kako se protivnik postavi (ovo moze da te natera da moras da infiltriras na 18" od njega, odnosno minimum 6" od Relica, a onda je pitanje da li neko vozilo moze da dodje i da pokupi taj unit itd itd..a sve ovo je naravno sa tim nacinom gde ti ukljucujes vozilo, uvek moze Sutic ili Luka da stanu na njega sa nekim Invisible ili 2++ jedinicom i samo da ti masu..za ovaj nacin sa vozilom bas mnogo stvari mora da se poklopi.

@CheMilan: Da, vozilo koje nosi Unit sa Relicom je najbolja opcija, jer samo ono moze da Turbo-boostuje, odnosno da se krece ukupno 12" po potezu. (Mogu i Screameri, ali su oni "izlozeni", dok Unit unutar vozila zahteva da nesto prvo ubije to vozilo, a tek onda puca na taj unit)
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Dzon Vejn
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Dzon Vejn »

Milan: Jeste, sad sam proverio, ne mozes u istom krugu da pokupis i udjes u vozilo.

Hit and run nisam ni spominjao. Spominjao sam turbo boost. Koji MOZES da radis. Jer tu nigde nista ne pise ;). U vozilu radi bas tako kako ti kazem (posto i ono koristi turbo boost) - kad si unutra, pomeris vozilo 6, pa turbo boost 6. Takodje, mozes da predas relic modelu u base-to-base kontaktu, sime dobijes jos koji inc unazad.

Ja sam tu misiju igrao protiv demona. On je doleteo prvi krug na relic sa screamerima, zatim turbo-boost unazad, zatim drugi unit namesti ispred tog. I do kraja partije vise nije bilo sanse da pokupim taj relic. Vrlo slicno radi i sa vozilima (samo je bitno da ispred unita koji drzi relic postavis nesto sto ce da spreci charge na unit koji drzi relic - sledeci krug udjes u vozilo i odes).

Nemanja: Flyere nisam pominjao u kontekstu relica, nego inace - ne verujem u vozila, nevezano za relic.
That was a hazardous consultation of the Libre Mortis my Lord. An ordeal of high and low doom. The moment I approached the book, it bit me most ferociously.
I must appologize for the explosion that blew off the door of The Chamber Unbreachable, but the simultaneous emergence of seventeen demons from the book spine, caused the spiritual detonation in the soul stoned air of the room.
The whole enterprise was an experience most horrendeous. None but I could have endured it. I was almost damned twice. Even now my soul is twisted to a cork screw.
I suggest you keep the state of your soul to yourself, and inform us, instead, what you have gleamed from the Grimoire.

Hatred and prejudice will never be eradicated. And witch hunts will never be about witches. To have a scapegoat - that's the key. Humans always fear the alien, the odd. Once the mages had left Novigrad, folk turned their anger against the other races... and, as they have for ages, branded their neighbors their greatest foes.

And 'cause I was gazillionaire and I liked doing it so much, I cut that grass for free.

Glory to Arstotzka!
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

ma ok pretpostavljao sam da moze da radi turboboost 6 nego sam mislio mozda moze u vozilu da ide vise od 6.
Jedino Infiltrate moze u prvom potezu da zapravo radi :D ili neko sranje kao jetbikes sto ide 12 pokupi ga i onda turboboost 6 nazad
...pa i nisi bas najbolji...
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Telion
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Da li ima neko jos nesto da doda na temu gorepomenutog Vote-a?
Zelim takodje da napomenem da je prikljuceno jos jedno pitanje, a to je:
"Vote Question 9
---------------
A. Play with levels in ruins at the ETC
B. Play without levels in ruins at the ETC"

Cenim da se svi slazemo da je nas odgovor A, kako je po BRB-u.

Glasanje u vezi ovih 9 pitanja traje do petka, 13.2.
Moje misljenje sluzi kao "default settings", i ako se ne dogovorimo drugacije do 12.2. glasovi naseg tima ce biti kao sto je tamo napisano.
Svako pitanje na koje dogovorom promenimo odgovor, bice editovano u tom postu kako bi svi imali uvid u eventualne promene.

Hvala. :commisar:
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

Sa nivoima, ali da je moguce charg iako ne mozes da stanes na sprat na kom je protivnik
...pa i nisi bas najbolji...
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Hypodermic »

sta bi tacno bio odgovor B? tj kako tumace ako ruina nema nivoe? Kako se razresava sta je pogodjeno, assaultovano, itd?

Iako nisam clan tima, mislim da bi def bilo bolje pod A (tj po pravilima :) ), uz mozda fusnotu da naglase da li svaki nivo u ruini je 3 incha ili je "as is" incha. I da, naravno, sto rece Milan, da je moguc charge cak i ako nije moguce fizicki staviti modele (a za abnormalno visoke modele tipa trygon, Dreadknight, Knight da mogu da udaraju sve nivoe koji su njihove visine?)
Pendargon wrote:...po toj logici, mogao bih da isecem lepih 10 kockastih komada stiropora, na devet zalepim bolter i bolt pistolj, i granate, i mali nozic, jednom zalepim powerfist da viri, a na jednog zakacim lasscannon, i imam savrsenu jedinicu chaos space marinaca....
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Telion
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Jos samo 5 dana ostalo je do zatvaranja ovog glasanja, a trenutno stvari stoje ovako:

1. A (13 votes) / B (2 votes)
2. A (11 votes) / B (0 votes) / C (4 votes)
3. A(10 votes) / B (5 votes)
4. A(11 votes) / B(4 votes)
5. A(6 votes) / B(5 votes) / C (1 vote) / D (3 votes)
6. A (0 votes) / B (1 vote) / C (6 votes) / D (1 vote) / E (6 votes) - (Danci nisu glasali ni za jednu opciju)
7. A (4 votes) / B (11 votes)
8. A (11 votes) / B (4 votes)
9. A (13 votes) / B (2 votes)


Za sada je, kao sto vidite, glasalo petnaest timova, redom: Sjedinjene Drzave, Vels, Grcka, Austrija, Spanija, Francuska, Danska, Malta, Poljska, Belorusija, Holandija, Severna Irska, Skotska, Srbija, Finska.
Kao sto mozete videti najneizvesnije pitanje je da li ce biti The Relic misije ili ne.
Takodje, sve je izvesnije da cemo ponovo gledati KP u svakoj misiji, ali sa redukovanim max. bonusom koji mozes da dobijes od njih (za sada su samo Francuzi dali predlog da se smanji do +6/-6, a ja bih dao predlog da, ako se vec koriste u svakoj misiji to bude do +4/-4)

*UPDATE-ovano
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

Relik je neizvestan :D
Nije bitno sto danci nisu glasali kad ce u svakoj misiji biti killpoeni bar po ovom trenutnom stanju a deluje da se nece to promeniti :S
...pa i nisi bas najbolji...
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

Do kad je glasanje lasice? I da li ce nakon glasanja odmah izaci konacna pravila? :)
...pa i nisi bas najbolji...
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by deka »

CheMilan wrote:Do kad je glasanje lasice? I da li ce nakon glasanja odmah izaci konacna pravila? :)
Naravno da neće...

Konačna pravila će garant' da budu objavljena tek NAKON deadline-a za predaju lista... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Glasanja ce trajati dokle god budu izlazile nove stvari i ako se pojave neke nove "nebalansirane" stvari.
Takodje, moze se glasati za nesto sto je vec izglasano ako se sakupi 10 kapitena koji budu ZA re-vote.

Zeleo bih da podsetim da imamo samo jos 2 dana za diskutovanje o ovom glasanju, jer se deadline blizi...
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by joggy »

eh, ako se ja nesto pitam ovde, ako pravila nisu by the book, onda mi je potpuno sve jedno sta ce sve da nabunare, samo da konacna pravila izadju na vreme a ne da se dopunjuju na samom turniru.
I da, ako uvedu ono sto su hteli prosle godine da se ocenjuje obojenost figura, sto je apsolutno subjektivna kategorija, mislim da nemamo sta da trazimo tamo.
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Telion
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Kao sto sam ti rekao, za sada nema nista u vezi ofarbanosti vojski kao sto su hteli da uvedu prosle godine, i cini mi se da nece biti (barem za sada) jer, ako se ne varam, treba da se skupi 10 kapitena za to.
Ono sto je sigurno, je isto kao i do sada- 3 boje/tacke/linije na modelu + baza sa peskom = model spreman za ETC.
"MISSION SUCCESSFUL! Once again, I...Cato Sicarius..."
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Telion
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Vote se zavrsava sutra, a trenutno ovako stoje stvari:
1. A (13 votes) / B (2 votes) - A. Alter the current package with the outcomes of the votes below
2. A (11 votes) / B (0 votes) / C (4 votes) - A. Play with current rulespack set of maelstrom cards
3. A(10 votes) / B (5 votes) - A. Include the Relic as a mission
4. A(11 votes) / B(4 votes) - A. Use killpoints in every Round
5. A(6 votes) / B(5 votes) / C (1 vote) / D (3 votes) - A. Use killpoints in every mission but reduce their weighing factor
6. A (0 votes) / B (1 vote) / C (6 votes) / D (1 vote) / E (6 votes) - (Danci nisu glasali ni za jednu opciju) - C.(E.) If Killpoints are used in some but not all missions, include them in 3(5) of the missions.
7. A (4 votes) / B (11 votes) - B. Do not use the Fighter Ace Upgrade from Shield Of Baal
8. A (11 votes) / B (4 votes) - A. A Team may only use each formation once in its army lists
9. A (13 votes) / B (2 votes) - A. Play with levels in ruins at the ETC

Dakle, kako se glasanje sutra zatvara, ne verujem da ce se nesto promeniti. Ovako stoje stvari sa Rulespack-om za ovu godinu, i ono sto mozete primetiti je da ce biti gotovo isti kao i prethodne godine, sa dodatkom limitiranih formacija i sa smanjenim uticajem Kill Poena.
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Megabaja »

Ok, kako god da odluce...
Pamti, pa vrati...

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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Takodje, postavljeno je pitanje u vezi unapredjivanja Rulespack-a i FAQ-a...
tomepnk wrote:
mort2k wrote:Thanks - when are you excepting the next FAQ ?
Plan is and was to do updates near the end of every month.
Ono sto bih ja pitao je, KADA ce to biti "zakljucano", odnosno, kada cemo znati koje su finalne verzije nakon kojih nece biti velikih i bitnih promena?
(sve u cilju izbegavanja neprijatnosti sa prethodnog ETC-a)
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

naravno :) to sam ti i rekao pre par postova :)
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Rezultati glasanja.
tomepnk wrote:Vote closed!

Results as follows:

We alter the current package with these outcomes:
Play with current rulespack set of maelstrom cards
Include the Relic as a mission (close call: 11-10 vote)
Use killpoints in every Round
Base on the outcome of question 5, we conclude that:
10 in favor of reducing weighing factor while 11 in favor of not reducing weighing factor
15 to use killpoints in every mission while 6 to use killpoints in some missions
So we don't change the weighing factor and we use killpoints in every mission.
We do not use the Fighter Ace Upgrade from Shield Of Baal
A Team may only use each formation once in its army lists
We continue to Play with levels in ruins at the ETC

Based on this, the final rulespack will be the one from last year. No changes needed, just updating to current format. Expect an update to follow next week somewhere.
Kao sto neki od vas mogu primetiti, jedina izmena u odnosu na prekjucerasnje predvidjanje je ta da su u poslednjem trenutku odredjene reprezentacije glasale i prevagnule u korist opcije gde se "tezina" Kill Poena NE SMANJUJE, tako da, kao sto je Tom rekao, igramo po istom Rulespacku kao od prosle godine, s tim da su formacije dozvoljene ali su 0-1 PO TIMU.
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Sada je ispao problem, jer su pitanja 4 i 5 bila lose formulisana. U kratkim crtama, u pitanju 4 ljudi su vecinom glasali za opciju A. Use killpoints in every Round, dok su kasnije u pitanju 5, bili davani razliciti odgovori i onda je to dovelo do neke zabune. Da sad ne bismo ulazili u detalje, mozda bude re-vote, a mozda se samo reprezentacije koje su glasale za 5C i 5D ponovo izjasne izmedju:
5A. Use killpoints in every mission but reduce their weighing factor
5B. Use killpoints in every mission but do not reduce their weighing factor - same as last rulespack


U svakom slucaju, pretpostavljam da se svi slazemo da nas odgovor bude pod 5A, sa predlogom da se KP smanje na +4/-4 ili +6/-6.
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Megabaja »

Da, da 5A.
Pamti, pa vrati...

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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Nije bas Vote, ali je predlog nemackog kapitena kako da se unapredi trenutni ETC sistem. Bacite pogled i podelite svoje misljenje.
FenneQ wrote:BTT please.
I can give you a variety of examples of alternatove scoring methods for the ETC. I know, that many of your are quite conservative about this, but read and think about it for before you judge.

1. Percentage Scoring (IMO the best way to score in 40k right now)

This way to calculate the result of matches was developed by a german tournament organizer named Sebastian Rühlig.

Both players scores are calculated:
Example
Player A MS: 14 EW: 10 = 24 VPs
PlayerB MS: 7 EW: 7 = 14 Vps

Both results are added together making 38 VPs, this is our 100% of scored points in this match.
Player A gets = 63,%
Player B gets = 37%

That is the players score. You add all the players and get a Teamresult. These Teamresults are added together and ranked.
Through the variety of points you can save the winning/losing mark of points. You get a far more representative result of scoring for every match, because the activity and participation of the losing player is better represented.

The tourney is more close in terms of ranking. You will all know, that there are only so many teams to be on top in the end.
So until the last match everything can happen.

Maelstrom:
I think, that it is important to play the entire maelstrom deck and to implement the Codex missions as well.
40k is way to complicated to forsee all consequences adequately, but, what we can see right now, is, that all communities, that play with the old ETC format play many deathstars. For example Poland. Here in Germany we can see a variety of rosters becaue our system is quite open and winnable for any kind of roster. The last 2 editions support deathstars ruleswise anyhow, so why extend that to a unenjoyable state. The far better method to prevent the cards from being to random is to allow people to discard 2 cards per turn. Not to prevent them to score a certain amount. I am not sure about the random Vps with some cards.
But if your draw a card, that is not possible to fulfull at this stage of the game, always checking the possibility of scoring it during the rest of the game (i.e. flyers in reserve), you just discard it right away. This is fast and easy to handle.

so this would be my first proposal. MS+ EW = VPs = relative matchworth
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by RatGod »

Ovo zvuci zanimljivo pogotovu za moju novu listu SW/AM :argh:
1000 year-old lords of the walking dead? Chosen avatars of the dark gods leading horrible creatures from another dimension? Ancient members of the civilization who created the very world upon which we wage our wars? Bah! We're skittish mutant rats. We've got a bell. And we're going to ring it till your ears hurt bleed. Bitches.
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Hypodermic »

Percentage scoring je bas drugacija ideja scoringa od ovoga sto mi imamo, gazi lasicine limitere za maelstrom/eternal war razlike na primer (IIRC i ETC ima limiter, makar za kill poene, zar ne?), tako da ako bude bas mnogo VP-a sa obe strane rezultat nece biti 20:0, cak ni blizu tome (nikada ne mozes 100% da ostvaris). Kao tie breaker bi bio zanimljiv, ali onda radis isto sto smo i mi na zadnjem nasem mini turniru, samo u procentima.
Pendargon wrote:...po toj logici, mogao bih da isecem lepih 10 kockastih komada stiropora, na devet zalepim bolter i bolt pistolj, i granate, i mali nozic, jednom zalepim powerfist da viri, a na jednog zakacim lasscannon, i imam savrsenu jedinicu chaos space marinaca....
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

Bice jako gusto u racunanju koja reprezentacija je pobedila, niko nikad nece pobediti 20:0 osim ako ne ocisti protivnika.. Znaci ako se ovo usvoji KP te ne zanimaju, dovoljno je da imas gomilu unita koje njegov deathstar ne moze da ubije, a ti osvajanjem poena na kartice uzimas ono sto je tebi neophodno. Primer da se igra 6 krugova i ti u svakom uzmes 2 kartice to znaci da imas 12 poena a na kraju drzis 2 objektiva npr 4 poena i unistis mu 2 unita pa imas ukupno 18, a protivnik ti unisti 7 unita i ima firstblood, drzi 3 objektiva pa na njih ima i 6 poena i ispuni kartica manje nego ti ali recimo na kartice uzme 8 poena on ukupno ima 22 poena. Niko nema linebreaker niti slaythewarlord.
22+18=40
p1=18
p2=22
100*p/(p1+p2) tj 100*18/40=45% a on 55%
a da se igraju misije kao do sad bilo bi
p1=4+4+0=8
p2=0+7+5=12

12:8 za njega sto kad bi sad prebacio u procentualno gledanje gde je 100%=20poena
100*12/20=60% a ti bi imao 40%

Jbg mala je razlika jer sam mali broj poena uzeo, al skapirali ste sta sam hteo da kazem :D Poenta je da je tesko napraviti veliku razliku, tj izgubiti puno poena ili ih uzeti puno. :)
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

Mislim da nasoj reprezentaciji ovo vise odgovara jer mi smo najvise poena uzimali tako sto neko ocisti protivnika ( chronos onog tau-a) :D a lakse se cuvaju poeni ovako.
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Hypodermic »

kako ce se racunati tabled? ako je to 100%, onda racunica postaje jos zanimljivija. Silikonkova matematika je spot on, i postaje jos izrazenije kako poeni rastu, primer sa ETC foruma bi se zavrsio 15:5 ili 16:4, sto je mnogo jace nego onih 65/35 koliko su izracunali

edit: ne, cekaj, stani, ne radi mi mozak, racunao sam kao da je turnir bio kod nas pa se razlika izmedju EW i MA racunaju posebno, inace bi bilo 20:0 u primeru
Pendargon wrote:...po toj logici, mogao bih da isecem lepih 10 kockastih komada stiropora, na devet zalepim bolter i bolt pistolj, i granate, i mali nozic, jednom zalepim powerfist da viri, a na jednog zakacim lasscannon, i imam savrsenu jedinicu chaos space marinaca....
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Megabaja »

ma jeste sad... ajd da svi nosimo laptopove sa sobom da bi racunali rezultate. ja sam protiv ovog nacina racunanja.
Pamti, pa vrati...

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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

Upcoming votes - Draft:
tomepnk wrote:
Vote Question 1
-------------------
A. Increase the importance of maelstrom points ingame by allowing the scoring of three cards per turn
B. Keep the current guidelines for maestrom scoring as per ETC 2014

Vote Question 2
-------------------
A. Reduce the weighing factor of Killpoints in final mission scoring
A1- 6 maximum difference
A2- 4 maximum difference
A3- 2 maximum difference
A4- no KP difference but use killpoints as one of the scoring means in a mission instead of an eternal war mission
A5- no KP difference but use killpoints as one of the scoring means in a mission instead of maelstrom
B. Do not Reduce the weighing factor of Killpoints in final mission scoring

Vote Question 3 - Only valid if A was chosen in vote 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
A. The points left over from killpoints reduction will be used to maximally increase points earned from Eternal War Missions and its Objectives
B. The points left over from killpoints reduction will be re-distributed in general mission scoring
Any changes/additions to the votes before it goes live, just holler!
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

1) A
2) A2
3)B
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Telion »

tomepnk wrote:Update on the draft with adjustements for comments made and adding of outstanding issues:
Vote Question 1
-------------------
A. Increase the importance of maelstrom points ingame by allowing the scoring of three cards per turn
B. Keep the current guidelines for maestrom scoring as per ETC 2014

Vote Question 2
-------------------
Total votes from A (sum of A1 to A5 votes) and B will decide if we will or will not reduce KP scoring in missions. The sum of A1 to A3 will be compared to the sum of A4 to A5 to see if we will use KP's at all or replace them as a mission for scoring instead of a moidifier for final mission points. If A4 to A5 would get majority votes, a straight up majority will decide if it will be A4 or A5 to be used. Countries voting for B should also stipulate what answers from A are preferable to their team in case the vote should not swing their way and vote as follows: B (A1) which would constitute a vote for B but with a preference for A1 should majority decide on a reduction in KP weighing factor.

A. Reduce the weighing factor of Killpoints in final mission scoring
A1- 6 maximum difference
A2- 4 maximum difference
A3- 2 maximum difference
A4- no KP difference but use killpoints as one of the scoring means in a mission instead of an eternal war mission
A5- no KP difference but use killpoints as one of the scoring means in a mission instead of maelstrom
B. Do not Reduce the weighing factor of Killpoints in final mission scoring


Vote Question 3 - Only valid if A was chosen in vote 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
A. The points left over from killpoints reduction will be used to maximally increase points earned from Eternal War Missions and its Objectives
B. The points left over from killpoints reduction will be re-distributed in general mission scoring


Vote Question 4 - LOS issues for flyers
-----------------------------------------------------------
A. Keep the 22.5 angle up and down from weapon muzzle
B. Keep the 22.5 angle up and down from weapon muzzle but allow a ruleschange that you ignore the firing model for LOS purposes
C. Implement a deadzone around the flyer where models can't be affected by flyers shooting, measuring from its base.


Vote Question 5 - Fortifications
-----------------------------------------------------------
A. Players can only ever field a single fortification regardless of how many detachments they are fielding
B. Players can field as many fortifications as allowed by the detachments they are fielding

Vote Question 6 - Detachments
-----------------------------------------------------------
We had a vote on 'named' formations and restricted them, so I feel the same vote should be had (was overlooked) for Detachments
A. Teams can field every named detachment (like Hive Fleet Detachment and Decurion Detachment) only once in the team. This does not count for a normal CAD
B. No restriction on named Detachments
Unless there are more remarks I will run this vote as is on Wednesday for two weeks. I don't expect to run any additional votes after that except for mission finetuning.
Ovako, sto se tice nasih odgovora, evo mojih predloga sa kratkim objasnjenjima.
Q1: A (Glasao bih za ovo cisto zato sto je blize BRB, a i lakse se outdeck-ujes, pa cemo im tako, nadam se, pokazali da pola deck-a nije dovoljno)
Q2: A2 (Jer je A3 jednostavno nerealna opcija koja nece proci..nazalost, dok odgovori A4 i A5 potpuno menjaju koncept misija, ako sam dobro razumeo. Mozemo da glasamo i za neki od ta dva, ako ustanovimo da nam odgovara, ali mislim da je premalo vremena da isprobamo kako funkcionise)
Q3: A (posto mi se cini da bismo tako dobili misije koje su donekle slicne nasim)
Q4: C (pokazalo se kao dobar izbor, barem kada je nasa zajednica u pitanju)
Q5: B (zato sto je tako po BRB)
Q6: B (zato sto je tako po BRB)

Posto ce Vote, kao sto ste mogli videti gore, biti postavljen od srede, odvojicemo vremena da malo prodiskutujemo i o njemu na sastanku u petak.
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by Hypodermic »

sto je lasica rekao. Q4 A4 bi bilo super, onda bi misije bile identicne kao kod nas - samo jedna ili dve bi imale killpoints u misiji kao jedini Eternal War element misije, ali kao sto je rekao, ne verujemo da ce iko hteti to.
Pendargon wrote:...po toj logici, mogao bih da isecem lepih 10 kockastih komada stiropora, na devet zalepim bolter i bolt pistolj, i granate, i mali nozic, jednom zalepim powerfist da viri, a na jednog zakacim lasscannon, i imam savrsenu jedinicu chaos space marinaca....
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Re: ETC 2015 - votes

Post by CheMilan »

+1 za lasichin :)
...pa i nisi bas najbolji...
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