Klub Zmaj

OK - so I recently inherited a Skorne army and although I do still love my blues I always wanted to play Skorne. So I'm looking at Skorne for the Saturday event and thinking about a 500pt list. I'm putting together combinations and nothing really seems to work. Starting with Skorne's best Warlock at 500pts - Hexeris I've tried to put together a list. The key to Hexeris' threat is the Deathbringer spell. To do this effectively an enraged titan is best - giving POW 14 hits all round. Thus you need Hexeris, a Gladiator and Paingivers. Add to that a ranged threat - then the Cannoneer is the obvious choice. Given Hexeris' 7 Fury Stat and the multi-purpose value of a Krea - I think that also becomes an auto-include. This leaves about a hundred points. Troops come next, Cetrati or Praetorians and with the remaining 30 I would get Bone Grinders to enhance Hexeris' spell casting threat.
This gives us -
Lord Tyrant Hexeris
Titan Cannoneer
Titan Gladiator
Basilisk Krea
Cataphract Cetrati (5)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (4)
Farrow Bone Grinders (4)
499 points.

But I know from having played similar variations of this list that it is problematic. Firstly Hexeris and the Krea have to hide behind the Cetrati which limits their speed (can't run and end in Shield Wall) and this creates a nice pie magnet. If the Gladiator goes in front it is prone to being slammed and knocking over everything. The Cannoner and Bone Grinders also stay at the back to provide support and range thus there is no combat until round 3 unless the enemy chooses to initiate it and given the slow speed it is very difficult to get the charge.
I think that Skorne lacks balance and effectiveness at 500 points. It cannot offer more than a single threat that is easily countered by an experienced player. At 750 points the balance is improved with another beast (drake or cyclops) an agoniser and another unit such as swordsmen or venators. With a 14" control area Hexeris' feat can capture all of these and a lot of the enemy too. At 750 points I think Skorne goes from the weakest faction to faction that can compete with Orboros and Trollbloods. Given the mobility and threat of Everblight I still think that this faction is the most dangerous at 750 points.
At a 1000 points the Skorne army is far more deadly. The following list has far more impact when it comes down to Hexeris' feat and how to provide a lot of hurt on the enemy.
Lord Assassin Morghoul
Lord Tyrant Hexeris
Titan Cannoneer
Titan Bronzeback
Titan Gladiator
Basilisk Drake
Basilisk Krea
Agonizer
Ancestral Guardian
Cataphract Cetrati (6)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (4)
Praetorian Swordsmen (6)
Venator Catapult Crew
Venators (6)
Farrow Bone Grinders (4)
Feralgeist
999 points

In the 500pt version the enraged Gladiator had a threat range of 10" plus 3" from Death Bringer. In this list by activating the Drake's animus on the Venators and having them shoot the Gladiator in the back you are looking at a threat range of 8" (running), +2" (enraged), +2" (eM's prey), +2" (BB) so 14" and that is after being pushed 6" - 9" by Venators at the beginning. Hexeris has to move his 6" plus 10" DB spell range and 3" from the bone grinders and this means he will be ok to get the back of the Gladiators base for Deathbringer. If Skorne activate second they could be wiping out a unit of Long Gunner or Banes in turn 1. This mean the opponent must deal with the Gladiator during round 2 or have a similar occurance. The Feralgeist is 8" away - so they have to kill it twice. This also allows the rest of the army to run with the cover of a p*ssed off pachyoderm in the opponents face. By the Skorne second or third turn you are looking at a eMorghoul/Hexeris feat combo that drops the opponents defence by 4 and has any models killed get up and starting killing their own comrades. The Hexeris snowball effect is far more lethal. With 4 less defence tramples from the BB become frightning, the cannoneer and catapult crew can cause carnage and not to mention the venators and swordsmen. Here the threat of Skorne is from several directions and is game turning. One wound models kill each other Deathbringer on a blind warjack or beast is practically an autohit and the retaliation in the following round will still include blind models and therefore limited. At 1500 point the inclusion of eMagnus or Makeda or Xersis only makes the army far more frightning. The opponent must separate their army to limit the impact of eMorghoul's and Hexeris' feat and try to disable renegades in anticipation of the killer round.
At this point there really is no other Horde faction that can bring that level of hurt to the table and only the inclusion of the Warlock Saeryn needs to cause the Skorne player to seriously change tactics.

a) We have too many sticky threads on this subforum, so I suggest that you unmark all the "tactics" threads.

b) Please do play a fun, painted army you have experience with and leave the Skorne medal to me or Dawngreeter

c) I also have trouble with 500 Skorne lists, 750 is much easier to handle

d) I'm not sure you need the Gladiator with Hexeris. Dule's idea is just to take the Canoneer and the Krea, as they provide sufficient fury. You can always targer enemy models with Deathbringer. And I think the Rhinodon is superior, as he has much more versatility on the battlefield

e) Also consider taking Gatormen with Hexeris. They're almost as tough as Cetrati, don't need the shieldwall, hit harder, provide swamps, make an excelent target for Deathmarch...

f) Always throw in the gobbers.

Shunka made some good points.
Also, do not forget that Hexeris have one more trick against Hordes armies: Fury control/denial. To do this, you need Krea and Agonizer. First, Hexeris can reave fury points from enemy warbeasts. Then, he has a spell which allows him to 'steal' a fury point. His "The Suffering" spell lowers the target warbeast's THR, and that warbeast must make threshold check even if it has no fury points. Agonizer's "The maddening" ability gives that warbeast another threshold check, and Krea's Spirit Lock ability prevents warlock from leaching fury from target warbeast. So, if you want something to go nuts, you can do that easy - no leaching, -2 THR and 3 threshold checks.
Even the Krea's ability alone is very good - especially if you play it at the right moment.

As a former Skorne player, I have to agree that Skorne is hard to play at 500 point level. They shine when there is a lot of troops. Some of the biggest problems I have encountered are the emphasis on hand to hand combat and lack of mobility. Skorne can really have a lot of problems with units like Raptors, or with anything big that can hit them hard and run away. And yes, strong ranged attacks also hurt them.

One more thing: Skorne are slow. Because of that, some of their units can be easily ignored. For example, in EVERY game I lost, at least half of the Cetrati unit survived. Why? Because they are tough and with a few bonuses, they can be almost indestructible. But in the same time, they are slow, so opponents can focus on some other targets. Then, there is dilemma - should you use Cetrati unit defensively or not? If you hide important stuff behind, your big beasts will be the targets. If you use them to attack, it can leave a hole in your defense.

But, Skorne has models that allow sudden bursts of speed - Immortals, Ancestral guardians and Paingivers. Immortals and AG require special army list (usually focused on Zaal), but AG is cheap so he can be included almost anywhere (but, be careful, 'cause he won't do a lot if you have 10-12 models). Paingivers are auto - include in any list, as far as I'm concerned.

We should definitely run some Tooth and Claw games. Or Horde - on - Horde violence. I miss that a lot. I constantly play against WM armies (the exception was game against Bojan and Legion last weekend, which was quite refreshing).

Anyway, the way I see it, there are 3 dominant 'army builds': Hexeris with big beasts and some strong units, Zaal with Immortals and AGs and Makeda with a lot of troops. The last one was successfully run by Dawngreeter few months ago. That Krea still appears in my dreams.

Immortals and Ancestral Guardians work even without Zaal. In Makeda lists, for example.

Anyway, the way I see it, there are 3 dominant 'army builds': Hexeris with big beasts and some strong units, Zaal with Immortals and AGs and Makeda with a lot of troops.

In a 500 point tournament I disagree. Just as with Trollbloods Borka and Hoarluk are not competitive so too for Skorne there are Warlocks that are not competitve. At 500 points Skorne needs a Warlock 2-3 beasts and paingivers. This typically means it only gets one unit. Remember Zaal cannot just use Immortals and gain souls so he too really only functions well at 750 points where he can take 3 units and 3 Ancestral Guardians. Hexeris can compete because of Deathbringer and his feat but with the need to include Bone Grinders he struggles with units. Makeda - I'm still not sure about. All I know is that the TB Brick went through her with ease every time I've played against her.

With the Cannoneer and the Krea you can get 8 fury per round but you will have to max out one beast and leave only 1 fury on another. This is really risky to manage and you could easily find yourself without room to transfer or having to cut yourself.

I'm saying that at 750pts Skorne becomes competitive and at 1000 points it becomes a true terror with the inclusion of eMorghoul. The double feat combo will be as deadly as pretty much anything that's available.

Shunka - as there are no other Trollblood players I will play Trollbloods, I was simply toying with the idea of competitive Skorne lists. Given that our campaign idea has died on its arse I am thinking of packing away the ole Blue Skins and concentrating on Cygnar and Skorne for the next couple of months. I want to see how eMagnus does with Skorne.

One more thing: Skorne are slow.

I completely disagree. At 750 pts I think I can get a Titan Gladiator to charge 18" with Hexeris.

FGSerbia wrote:as there are no other Trollblood players I will play Trollbloods

There's Miroslav and maybe even me.

Miroslav's already declared he's playing Legion and I thought you'd be bringing the original reds?

FGSerbia wrote:Miroslav's already declared he's playing Legion and I thought you'd be bringing the original reds?

I'm still thinking about it.
Original plan was - Trolls at 350, Skorne at 500 and Khador at 750. But maybe I'll be playing Khador at 350, Trolls at 500 and Skorne at 750 (with the Master Assassin). Other combinations are also possible.

I was thinking Cygnar at 350, HBC at 500 and Trolls at 750.
Though if you're playing TBs and Dawngreeter's only doing the Tooth & Claw then no-one's playing Skorne at 500??

There is an ever so slight chance that I might do Skorne 500pts if Shunka doesn't go with it. But time is a scarce resource since my mandatory military service started and I have no idea if I'll able to figure out a way to spend two days at the tournament... :?

Well I sleep safer knowing that you're watching the western front and keeping the enemies at bay.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh laugh it up, Englishman. You'll get yours after I spend a weekend thinking up a witty comeback to that. It'll be earth-shaking I tell you! :P

It seems that my "Gladiator Bomb" won't work as PP errata'd the Drake's Animus to only work against enemy models.
I'll have to see what eMakeda or eHexeris bring to the flying pachyoderm department. That's the future. Is it a bird, is it a plane....?

I think you are whining a lot about skorne without true reason. Ok, they have tough time against evil, evil forests. And some of their warlocks ain't best at facing warmachine. But, you have the tied favourite for the strongest Hordes 'lock, and that would be hexeris. And really, against anything, hordes or warmachine, ('cept maybe carefully thought of cryxian force) he is a beast, even at 500 pts. Here is THE list i would be taking with them.

Hex
Canonneer
Krea
Cetrati x5
Karax x 10
Bone grinders x 4
totem hunter.

500 pts on the nose... :-)
Just remember, you do NOT need to go shieldwall all the time

Kewl list only weakened by the fact that no-one in Serbia has got Praetorian Karax.

not even you?... 8) 8) try this, then :
Hex
CAnnoneer
Krea
Cetrati x 4
Swordsmen x9 +UA
Totem hunter
Gobbers
Bone grinders x 4
498 pts

Pendargon wrote:not even you?... 8) 8) try this, then :
Hex
CAnnoneer
Krea
Cetrati x 4
Swordsmen x9 +UA
Totem hunter
Gobbers
Bone grinders x 4
498 pts

Swap Cetrati for Gatormen, and I'll probably bring them to the tournament.
Why Karax, BTW?

they have reach, and are therefore better targets for deathmarch. Also, they have a better chance to arrive alive where you need them, thanx to higher armour, and an ability to (occasionally) shieldwall

Man now I'm torn.
I was going to play a skorne 500 point list with Hexeris but now it seems that Shunka is jumping on that band wagon. It was a similar list but with Bog Trog Ambushers instead of Karax. I can't play Trollbloods if there are no other Trollblood players - where's the competition? And there can't be two similar Hexeris lists. I'm going to have to go with Cygnar again then. At least I can then challenge for the highest Cygnar place. Is Dawny coming down on saturday?

Mmmm, Bog Trogs... I like the idea - 1 skorne and the rest is aligators, elephants, frogs, pigs, swampys... And a couple of gobbers and the Predator.

You can use Epic Warlock Dr. Doolittle.

New found respect for Skorne at 500 points and for the much maligned pMorghoul.

The secret weapon in the Basilisk Drake. POW 14 Spray attacks are not to be sniffed at (as Saeryn last night found out). Also the threat of a Basilisk Krea that can charge 13" and deliver 5 boosted POW 16 attacks also cannot be ignored.

Two rules questions came up that I wasn't sure about.
1. Can Orin Midwinter shoot his lightning attack when in combat or would it require the gunslinger ability. The card says that his staff fires off a Lightning special action that is a RNG 10 POW 10 attack. Is this a spell or a ranged attack? Is it OK to use in combat?
2. The Drakes ranged attack causes units to turn away from the drake. Would this cause the Everblight Warbeasts to do so as they have eyeless sight. It looks like it would from a rules point of view but not from a logic point of view. The reason why I ask is that if the Drakes spray went through smoke (but he targeted a unit not behind the smoke) would the units hit behind the smoke still have to look away?

I'll have to check for the first one, but since i'm pretty sure that it is a MAGIC attack, and can therefore be fired in melle (but probably will hurt orin on the bounce...)
On a second- you are right... eyeless sight or no, they turn away. fluff=\rules... :-)

I am really pleased with my first outing with Morghoul. Of course he did nothing - the victory was achieved by the 2 basilisks, the Cannoneer and the gatormen. The cannoneer in my mind has been elevated to the level of auto-include and as the krea was already there I think the drake now rounds off my set of Skorne Warbeasts to be wheeled out at every opportunity.

And what have I been saying all this time ? :D

please with my first outing with Morghoul. Of course he did nothing

Welcome to the Khador mindset. It really doesn't matter what warcster are you fielding, as long as you have Behemoth, Drakhun, mortar, widowmakers, yuri and eyriss :lol: :lol: :lol:

I second that.

Not sure I agree. Their feat usually hurts. Believe me this comes from A LOT OF EXPERIENCE.

In the past 3 weeks I've played more with Orboros and Skorne than with anything else and it makes a nice change from Trolls. They are tough as hell but so one dimensional. Orboros is crazy. Quite squishy but movement is fantastic. Absolutely no point in playing a brick there.

Skorne is tricky to get into position but you have to think synergy - if you think one dimensionally you'll get owned. Cetrati + Krea do tend to lend towards bricking but if you don't take the Cetrati you have to really think about how you are going to attack.

The thing that I've also realised is that I believe Hordes is a much better game than Warmachine. I've always enjoyed it more but there are (so far) no broken lists against other Hordes factions and the games are always in the balance. Warmachine is a sexier game than Hordes (who doesn't love whopping great robots charging over the fields) but (as stated above) there are too many easy buttons for the factions.

Agreed. Some WM armies just tend to buff themselves or debuff the opposition so the trick eighter works in overkill heaven or it really doesn't.
Plus,I've come to beleave(might come from plaing Cygnar) that single wound cc infantry in WM is rubbish and does absolutely nothing wortwhile mentioning in comparison to their shooty brothers in arms.Sure ,there are exceptions- but really situational and perhaps even iffy.
Take my friend who plays Khador and has 2 compulsory units

(drums...)


TA-TA


Widowmakers....THAT WAS A TOUGH CALL-TELL HIM JOHNY,WHAT DID OUR CONTESTANT WIN?!
Mortar crew....

There's absolutely no freaking reason not to put these in any Khador list you play.
They are practically the backbone of every Khador army.Same goes for Bane Knights in Cryx.
I've stopped fielding any cc infantry- he just shoots the crap out of them and I fail to do anything worthwhile mentioning.

Hordes have a different game mechanism- the whole fury/risk menagment thing makes it so much more intersting.

Zealots + Monolith Bearer.

hey are practically the backbone of every Khador army.Same goes for Bane Knights in Cryx.

I will politely remind you that I won last tournament without ANY bane knights
Banes are far from auto-include with certain cryxian warcasters ( Denny, EDenny, Eskarre, Iron Leech...)
On the other hand, EVERY Khadoran warcaster who thinks highly of himself has Widowmakers, Mortar, yuri and Drakhun. There simply isn't any reason NOT to take them...

Pendargon wrote:

hey are practically the backbone of every Khador army.Same goes for Bane Knights in Cryx.

I will politely remind you that I won last tournament without ANY bane knights
Banes are far from auto-include with certain cryxian warcasters ( Denny, EDenny, Eskarre, Iron Leech...)
On the other hand, EVERY Khadoran warcaster who thinks highly of himself has Widowmakers, Mortar, yuri and Drakhun. There simply isn't any reason NOT to take them...

Ja sam bio prvi na Mengled Metal bez i jednog Knighta
I drugi na ovom gore turniru sa njih 16... i 8 Bileova ...i 8 McThrallova.
32 modela sa jednom ranom. Radilo.

Kinda moving off topic here.

Part of the reason why I prefer Hordes over WM is that there are no real broken lists in game. The lists that everyone mentions (Kruegar + Woldwarderns, Kromac + Wolves, Saeryn + Seraph + Angeli, Rhyas + WM Chief) are all very competitve against Warmachine but fall down against really fat Trollbloods and Skorne lists - thus we don't see them as broken.
The problems is that we (TB/SK) fall down against Warmachine as we don't have the "push a button and kill an entire unit of one wound infantry" spams and we both lack effective ranged attack units.
I really think that when and if TB's and SK get these the game (Hordes) will actually swing to our favour.

Back to the topic here. I have absolutely no experiance in playing Scorne- but am looking forward to it since as you mentioned FG Serbia they are fun to play- Have some tough Casters but no "push the button" units/solos/beast/shenanigans and that is a challange .
Plus- each Pretorain gets a Katana- what's not to love?
Plus,Scorne could take on WM with faster units- Ferox maybe? Their treat range with some Casters and their immunity to free strike in combination with leaping over models makes them a worthwhile investment- and a formidable foe.And they (due to leaping) could ignore terrain.
What's up with Trollbloods? Could they field large quantities of beasts? Bushwacking infantry,annoying solos creeking up,totem hunters and such?

Mislim da je signarovcima neophodna neka forma one wound close comab infantrija jer kada stvari krenu da bivaju licne momci sa puskama malo sta urade osim sto umru u mukama(odnosno umru brzo, efikasno i bez muke, nismo mi neki zli Kriks ili Menot)

Ono sto postoji u svakoj ozbiljnoj ruskoj listi uz Drakhuna, mortar i widowmakere su i iron fang pikemeni lep hth one wound unit.

Krunkova wrote:What's up with Trollbloods? Could they field large quantities of beasts? Bushwacking infantry,annoying solos creeking up,totem hunters and such?

Trolls go well against anything they can brick against. This includes Menoth and Khador (though, as Dule puts it, they struggle against the really nasty Khador auto-includes, but so does everyone). With Cygnar they have to have the little Goblins otherwise Long Gunners will just wear them down especially under temporal barrier. Certain Cryx lists are almost unplayable with Trolls as we are too slow to avoid Bile Thralls and none of our infantry has reach. This means that Bane Knights stop us in our tracks. If Pyg Bushwackers had an easy way to getting to 12" or 14" range then maybe they would be a Troll autoinclude but there isn't. Scattergunners are too expensive and again have no real range. Our Beasts are great but they are like all jacks - they no good against swarms. Damn I really don't want to open up a Tactica Trollbloods thread.

We should maybe have tactica : Hordes, and tactica : warmachie subforums (like in mtg section), where we could copy my Cryx tactica (which I tend to update from time to time), Khador begginer tactica by bojan, and other stuff...?

Pendargon wrote:We should maybe have tactica : Hordes, and tactica : warmachie subforums (like in mtg section), where we could copy my Cryx tactica (which I tend to update from time to time), Khador begginer tactica by bojan, and other stuff...?

I agree.
To many sticky threads round here. Moderators?

Ah, napravite podforume za teme koje su, sem ove i kriksa, updejtovane pre nesto vise od godinu dana.
Bla.

mladjano bugarce wrote:Mislim da je signarovcima neophodna neka forma one wound close comab infantrija jer kada stvari krenu da bivaju licne momci sa puskama malo sta urade osim sto umru u mukama(odnosno umru brzo, efikasno i bez muke, nismo mi neki zli Kriks ili Menot)

Ono sto postoji u svakoj ozbiljnoj ruskoj listi uz Drakhuna, mortar i widowmakere su i iron fang pikemeni lep hth one wound unit.

O čemu je ovde reč?

Pa range uniti su jedina stvar koja od infanterije valja ko Cygnara... u kombinaciji s Trencherima.
Uzmeš Strykera ili Caina i bacis na njih snipe za 6 focusa u prvoj rundi i upkipuješ - deliš bol šakom i kapom.
Ili Haley sa svojim featom i Temporal Barrier

Prvo to sve obaviš,onda Trencheri pucaju i bace smoke granate

Editirao sam da ne postam duplo...

CC infanterija od Cygnara ne radi golog *****. CC infanterija bez neke žestoke điđa baje protv Cygnara ne radi NIŠTA.
Prije nego mi sad 4 Cryxovca sjednu za vrat -sa osvajanjem turnira i listama sa i bez Bane knightova :lol: - svi se slažemo da kad ti armiju vodi Mr. Caine bilo šta bilo protivnička infanterija ide kući sa suzom u oku- a ON... ...odšeće u zalazak sunca