This is a question to get a concensus on units. I absolutely know that personal preference is a huge factor that cannot be qualified or quantified (for example no-one knows why Shunka keeps using Rorsh & Brine) but I would like to get players opinions on units for lists.
For example a new Cygnar player comes along and chooses a couple of Warcasters. He then gets the JWC, Squire, GMCA and whatever else takes his fancy. A couple of warjacks follow but what then? Can his choice be formulaic? The reason why I ask is that in this interim pre MKII phase it is units more than anything else that determine standings in tournaments and serious leagues. What does the new player do?
Looking at it analytically:
**Cygnar**
Meta: Shooty List
Warcasters: Caine, Haley, Stryker, Kraye, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Long Gunners
2ndary Unit: Gun Mages/Black 13th
Meta: Attrition List
Warcasters: Darius, Haley, Nemo, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Storm Lances
2ndary Unit: Precursor Knights
Meta: Assassination List
Warcasters: Stryker, Caine, Haley, Brisbane
Prime Unit: Black 13th
2ndary Unit: Rangers
Now this is not exact and definitely up for discussion - the purpose for starting this is that I have started Menoth and I am not looking to buy every model but still have enough models to play different metagame styles. In terms of Cygnar for example I would only ever use Storm Blades over stormguard thematically if I wanted a funky looking eStryker list and maybe not even then. To my mind there is no meta where Stormblades would be primary unit. To defend a point stormguard and PKs have far better tools, for attacking storm Lances are much better as are sword knights.
As the expansions increase a player may want to cherry pick units not to have a single uber army but to have a variety of styles that are supported by the best units for that style. You could argue that after buying Trollkin Champs one would never need Warriors but it is obvious they cannot be compared as they are for purely different purposes but Stormblades and Stormguard can be compared when you examine their stat line and strengths.
If we look at the following cryx list;
Lich Lord Terminus
Leviathan
Captain Rengrave
Black Ogrun Boarding Party (5)
Blackbane's Ghost Raiders (10)
Revenant Cannon Crew
Revenant Crew of the Atramentous (10)
Satyxis Raiders (10) w/Sea Witch
Thematically it is great - all undead piratey but it would never be fielded unless the players purely wanted to play thematically. There are better models to play in order to achieve lasting power, assassination or ranged combat. Thus it should be possible to create some kind of table for new players looking to get into the game without 'throwing money away' and then when they know what they want to play they can go for the more specialist units.
As I stated earlier my reason for starting this thread is that I am looking to put together a Menoth List that I can play in different ways but at the same time will not be a walkover in a serious scrap.
Warcasters are not a problem. I don't particularly like Amon or the Harbinger. Jacks wise I will go revengers, devouts, redeemers and I a flirting with the guardian and castigator from the heavies. Menoth's solos are great but it is units that I really come unstuck. Using the logic above I look at the different types of games and feel that almost half of the units could be declared redundant in anything other than themed lists. To illustrate; if you look at Idrians, Vengers, Bastions (arguably, as cheaper than Vengers) and Zealots you really cover all the bases (attrition, assassination etc) Menoth need. You could possibly add Flameguard for cheap souls and shieldwall but Cleansers, Deliverers, Knights Exemplar and Errants are pretty much redundant as all the other units do the same things ony better. Gravus helps all exemplars but with Vengers, the Visigoth and Bastions available to gain these bonuses why crowbar in knights exemplar?
This is of course true of Khador and Cryx but I'm wondering does anything redeem these units? Is it purely for fluff and personal preference?
I am truly interested in the tactical value of Stormblades over Stormguard or Black Ogrun over Bane Knights.
It also goes into Warjack choice but since the prevalence of infantrymachine this is a less pivotal factor in serious games. For Khador once you have the Behemoth, Beast 09 and maybe a destroyer or devastator is any other jack necessary other than as a cool looking model or rather expensive paperweight?
Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
I'll speak for Menoth units only: What you've mentioned is actually 'it' in terms of unit usefulness. However, I'll expect that the unused units will be much stronger in MKII, specially the deliverers and the knights exemplar (since they're making a 10 unit plastic box, it seems).
I suppose that their goal is that every player buys all the models, successively, in a serie of rulebooks and editions. (unfortunately the same modus operandi of all succesfull or wannabee succesful gaming companies).
So for now stick with your choice, don't forget the choir, the piper, A+H, vilmon, some wracks and you're all set up.
I suppose that their goal is that every player buys all the models, successively, in a serie of rulebooks and editions. (unfortunately the same modus operandi of all succesfull or wannabee succesful gaming companies).
So for now stick with your choice, don't forget the choir, the piper, A+H, vilmon, some wracks and you're all set up.
![Image](http://www.mandmdesign.it/images/BannerMKII_menoth_vindictus.png)
Re: Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
Sometimes you'd want to build a weaker list in order to match your opponent, who is either a weaker player or plays a themed army. Or you both want to try it out, because weaker lists play differently (as we demonstrated the other day).
Easy wins are not fun.
Tabletop wargaming was never optimised for competitive play.
Easy wins are not fun.
Tabletop wargaming was never optimised for competitive play.
Dawngreeter wrote:ima i toga
rekurzivno glupilo
90% svega je sranje, a to ukljucuje i preostalih 10%
Re: Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
I think Ad-Raza and a handful of Devouts could be useful in a Mangled Metal match... As for bigger matches, Kreoss is probably a better pick because of his feat.
We all know i played like 5 games or so, so i can't really back up theory with practice, but even in theory, some Menoth units are just plain "useless", since you can get the same thing cheaper, or pay a bit more and get so much more. Doesn't mean themed lists suck, it's just that the competitive ones are too strong.
And personally, i hate the deliverers.
As for the exemplars, you use those to fuel the seneschal from what i gathered. And he's one strong dude. I always thought the exemplars could use 2-3 more men, but if they add 5 - and leave the stuff they currently have - they'll become one of the "sure ins" imho. So a themed Exemplar army might not be bad either since you have paladins, seneschals, errants (which are heavily underused), exemplars and graveus. throw in a devout, kreoss's crusader, and a castigator/avatar/reckoner and you've got a nice list there. in theory![Happy :)](./images/smilies/smile.gif)
We all know i played like 5 games or so, so i can't really back up theory with practice, but even in theory, some Menoth units are just plain "useless", since you can get the same thing cheaper, or pay a bit more and get so much more. Doesn't mean themed lists suck, it's just that the competitive ones are too strong.
And personally, i hate the deliverers.
As for the exemplars, you use those to fuel the seneschal from what i gathered. And he's one strong dude. I always thought the exemplars could use 2-3 more men, but if they add 5 - and leave the stuff they currently have - they'll become one of the "sure ins" imho. So a themed Exemplar army might not be bad either since you have paladins, seneschals, errants (which are heavily underused), exemplars and graveus. throw in a devout, kreoss's crusader, and a castigator/avatar/reckoner and you've got a nice list there. in theory
![Happy :)](./images/smilies/smile.gif)
The mark of my divinity shalt scar thy DNA!
Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Start.
Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Start.
Re: Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
I can only speak from a Cygnar point of view -and we do have to consider that my only 2 opponents are Khador and Menoth.
So on to Cygnar units...
IMHO Black 13th are the most poweful unit when sniped for 6 or 7" and have a game mechanic to deal with almost every unit/jack/caster out there.Only units safe from them are those who use stealth- but Cygnar has other cheap means of dealing with such things.
Another thing that *could* work against Ryans chain attack(cuz that's what its all about
) are infantry squishy enough not to survive 2 hits,therefore making it harder to trigger the ability.But Caine himself takes care of that.
I have yet to use the unit- I personally don't want to use them just yet- they are too point and click . I wouldn't blame anyone of being a cheeser if they get used in a themed list,since lists with a theme are fun to play against.
An all gunmage army might be fun:
Caine
Thorn
Black 13th
Gun mages with UA marshalling a Sentinel(with tons of attacks)
Stormsmiths?
So on to Cygnar units...
IMHO Black 13th are the most poweful unit when sniped for 6 or 7" and have a game mechanic to deal with almost every unit/jack/caster out there.Only units safe from them are those who use stealth- but Cygnar has other cheap means of dealing with such things.
Another thing that *could* work against Ryans chain attack(cuz that's what its all about
![Rolleyes :roll:](./images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
I have yet to use the unit- I personally don't want to use them just yet- they are too point and click . I wouldn't blame anyone of being a cheeser if they get used in a themed list,since lists with a theme are fun to play against.
An all gunmage army might be fun:
Caine
Thorn
Black 13th
Gun mages with UA marshalling a Sentinel(with tons of attacks)
Stormsmiths?
Zivjeli smo u oblacima a onda se razvedrilo
-
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:48 pm
Re: Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
Stvarno mi nije jasno zato se ljudi loze na Black13th?
Igrao sam vise partija protiv njih i najvise sto urade je ubiju 4 pesadinca - a cesto ne urade ni to jer imaju ubogi RAT 7.Oni na prosecan roll promase zid ruske konjice koji trci ka njima a ima jedinu svrhu da sakrije dimom ostatak vojske. Verovatno bi mogi i da naprave JACKU 10-ak poena damage-a. Medjutim oni su jedan od najlakse ubivljivih unita u igri. Sada ce mi neko reci da na njih ide Arcane Shield i Gormanov dim. Medjutim, moje misljenje je da U WH i Hordes svaki unit moze manje vise sve - samo je pitanje resursa koje to oduzima.
Igrao sam vise partija protiv njih i najvise sto urade je ubiju 4 pesadinca - a cesto ne urade ni to jer imaju ubogi RAT 7.Oni na prosecan roll promase zid ruske konjice koji trci ka njima a ima jedinu svrhu da sakrije dimom ostatak vojske. Verovatno bi mogi i da naprave JACKU 10-ak poena damage-a. Medjutim oni su jedan od najlakse ubivljivih unita u igri. Sada ce mi neko reci da na njih ide Arcane Shield i Gormanov dim. Medjutim, moje misljenje je da U WH i Hordes svaki unit moze manje vise sve - samo je pitanje resursa koje to oduzima.
![Image](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/Pendargon/twinsbannertj4.jpg)
![Image](http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isred.jpg)
- Pendargon
- Moderator bez portfelja
- Posts: 2367
- Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:17 pm
- Location: Between Heaven and Hell... In Heaven they don't want me, but the Devil doesn't want a competition
Re: Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
Pa sto se tice tih character unita iz legendsa, ja bi ih rangirao ovako :
1 : Withershadow combine - upkeep spellova je sjajan, puppet strings takodje, upkeep denial takodje, a imaju i magic sprz, a i ne zelis bas da ostavljas jacka u 9 incha od njih :-)
2) Great bears - jedini razlog sto nisu prvi je taj sto Khadoru ionako ne manjka dobrih udaraca. Inace su sjajni
3) Black 13 - neophodno je uloziti resursa, kako Boki kaze, da bi oni bili wow. Pitanje naravno ostaje nije li mozda bolje potrositi 70 poena i resurse na nesto drugo...
4) Rhoven i Garda - oni su mi ponajgori, jer zapravo samo jedan cika tu radi nesto, i kada on padne (a nemaju nikakav life link itd...), ostali kao da ne postoje, sto definitivno nije slucaj sa ostalim character unitima. A i njegov ability zna da bude situacion...
1 : Withershadow combine - upkeep spellova je sjajan, puppet strings takodje, upkeep denial takodje, a imaju i magic sprz, a i ne zelis bas da ostavljas jacka u 9 incha od njih :-)
2) Great bears - jedini razlog sto nisu prvi je taj sto Khadoru ionako ne manjka dobrih udaraca. Inace su sjajni
3) Black 13 - neophodno je uloziti resursa, kako Boki kaze, da bi oni bili wow. Pitanje naravno ostaje nije li mozda bolje potrositi 70 poena i resurse na nesto drugo...
4) Rhoven i Garda - oni su mi ponajgori, jer zapravo samo jedan cika tu radi nesto, i kada on padne (a nemaju nikakav life link itd...), ostali kao da ne postoje, sto definitivno nije slucaj sa ostalim character unitima. A i njegov ability zna da bude situacion...
![Image](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/Pendargon/Magnus.gif)
![Image](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/Pendargon/disc_dominate.gif)
![Image](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/Pendargon/disc_potence_s.gif)
![Image](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/Pendargon/disc_celerity_s.gif)
![Image](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/Pendargon/obf.gif)
![Image](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/Pendargon/disc_quietus_s.gif)
Re: Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
Ja ih ne koristim jer su point and click.
Recimo da ih kao u primeru gore uzmeš s Cainom.
Poanta SVIH shooty unita u Cygnar vojsci a nisu jackovi je da se na njih baci snipe.
B 13 je BOLJI unit od Bearova baš zato što je Pendargon spomenuo što su Bearovi u Khador vojsci pa ne dolaze do izražaja toliko.
B 13 za razliku od njih deluje od prvog turna. Primer:
Caine ,B 13 ,piper
Ako igraš prvi to je brutalno.Snipe za 6(ili 7 sa squireom) ,piper peva +2" move.Oni su deployani na 10" od ruba(jer znaš da igraš prvi).
Move im je 6+2(piper) to je 8
Range pucanja 19 odnosno 25 ako iskoristiš arcane effect.
25+8+10 je 43 " 8O 8O
Bum-bam da ga jebeš nešto je umrlo
Kad se protivnik približi- onda ne treba +6" na range nego dodatna kockica na dmg
To je squad za Cygnar- mora biti dio smišljene koncepcije
Recimo da ih kao u primeru gore uzmeš s Cainom.
Poanta SVIH shooty unita u Cygnar vojsci a nisu jackovi je da se na njih baci snipe.
B 13 je BOLJI unit od Bearova baš zato što je Pendargon spomenuo što su Bearovi u Khador vojsci pa ne dolaze do izražaja toliko.
B 13 za razliku od njih deluje od prvog turna. Primer:
Caine ,B 13 ,piper
Ako igraš prvi to je brutalno.Snipe za 6(ili 7 sa squireom) ,piper peva +2" move.Oni su deployani na 10" od ruba(jer znaš da igraš prvi).
Move im je 6+2(piper) to je 8
Range pucanja 19 odnosno 25 ako iskoristiš arcane effect.
25+8+10 je 43 " 8O 8O
Bum-bam da ga jebeš nešto je umrlo
Kad se protivnik približi- onda ne treba +6" na range nego dodatna kockica na dmg
To je squad za Cygnar- mora biti dio smišljene koncepcije
Zivjeli smo u oblacima a onda se razvedrilo
-
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 4:48 pm
Re: Cannon Fodder & Tin Cans
I sta se onda desi? Oni pogode nesto 2,3 puta(setimo se RAT 7) STR11,12,13(mozda) i MOZDA ubiju par pesadinaca. Meni se cini da se oni za slot u listi oni tuku sa jedinicom GUN MAGES a znam koga bi u toj prici(nakon sto su dobili komandu) ja izabrao.
No, daleko od toga da imam nesto protiv B13. Easy points za Legiju ili Khador su uvek dobrodosli! \:D/
No, daleko od toga da imam nesto protiv B13. Easy points za Legiju ili Khador su uvek dobrodosli! \:D/
![Image](http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d177/Pendargon/twinsbannertj4.jpg)
![Image](http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_isred.jpg)