Tannhauser - Play Test

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Tannhauser - Play Test

Post by FGSerbia »

OK,
Myself and 3 others sat down to a game of the eagerly awaited Tannhauser last night. Given the hype I wanted to see if the game lived up to it. Whenever buying a Fantasy Flight game you know that the production is going to high quality (as the price usually is!), and many people do quote the look and feel of FFG's games as one of the factors in why they buy them. As for me I usually prefer diceless Euro games where the production quality is unimportant but the playability superb - so normally I am a big critic of FFG.

1. The look and feel.
As expected truly superb. Everything from the hardback character sheets to the luxury art work to the board is a true feast in both the vision and touch. At first the gothic darkness of the board can make identifying the pathfinding circles a bit tricky but within half an hour you just seem to 'get it' and it becomes very easy. In comparison to World of Warcraft - Tannhauser is a better looking game, more in keeping with Arkham Horror (though I feel it also surpasses that game's production quality as well). It also lacks the small health and gold/money tokens that both the others have and this makes the set up and packing away much quicker and there's no need for a 3 meter table so that there's room for all the event cards and encounter cards and treasure cards etc etc etc

2. The Game.
I should first point out that as part of the play test we only played the death match game (twice) and not the standard story game. The death match game lasts about half an hour and involves each team trying to kill each other. A couple of things to point out. Tannhauser is essentially a 2 player game. More can come in and take over characters but (especially in the cas of the Reich) there must be a team mentality - it is often necessary to sacrifice a character to secure a tactical advantage (making the other team use all their victory points or throw a grenade).
In the first game both sides rushed headlong into battle without really using much tactics. It was a brutal and short 5-0 victory for the Allies, their powerful flashguns and bombing capabilities. In the second match Bojan (having spent sometime reading the special abilities) joined the German team. We also swapped over to the cavern map which definitely suits the Germans. In this game the Germans played much more tactically and were able to pick off the allies with relative ease (5-2 to the Reich). After the game becomes known to the players I would say that the Reich has the stronger abilities (the Allies best weapons all have a minimum range and the Reich can corner them with close combat weapons) and in a two player game they would usually win. In a multiplayer game where everyone wants a piece of the glory and to do their own thing the firepower of the Allies would be a considerable factor.

3. The Playability.
The difference between the first and second games where vast. The change of tactics and the different starting equipment can alter things entirely. I also think that when story mode and domination mode are used caution and risk play a far superior part of the game and the game will last longer and involve hunting for equipment and ambushes far more. I would definitely (and will probably) play this again and expect the game to be completely unique to the last ones. As the Reich adopts a tactic the Allies find a way to counter it and the Reich then needs to rethink strategies. There is more then a passing resemblence to a game of chess where the opening moves often determine who has the upperhand in the rest of the game. An interesting addition to the game would be to hide character sheets from each other. Tactics change drastically if you know that the character you are hunting has a grenade and can attack all your grouped characters at once. By the time players have exhausted all the tactics there will be several expansions out (it is FFG after all) and did some say the Russians were coming....? Eat lead comrade.

Overall.
Yes the look and feel are a factor - the superb setting does help transform you away from a living room into the world of Tannhauser. The variety of strategems means that coming to the game is an exciting challenge. However - for my own mind Tannhauser is best played with 2 - 4 players, a group of 10 would become easily distracted (unless they were REALLY nerdy) and with lesser numbers the game is very involved. This maybe harsh criticism comparing the reasoning of a thirty something to that of a 12 year old but Tannhauser still doesn't quite live upto my childhood memory of the tension and excitement of Space Hulk. The story modes may change this - I will write again when I give them a go.
Lets say a rating of 9/10
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Post by Ko, jel' ja? »

Now you got me interested :D
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Post by FGSerbia »

I did actually forget to mention the main 'kewl' factor. The Reich team all rock!
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Post by Dawngreeter »

Just so everyone who playtested this last night knows - I was cursing at you all night long. Some people have fun while others crunch code in the wee hours of the night. Life just ain't fair. :P
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Post by Shark »

oh, a fellow code grinder... you really should have joined us because the game rocks...

as for some more playtesting - so far i'm certain that the "house" map is the Allied map, and the "cavern" one is the Reich; so it's usually the *guest* team that has to come up with a nifty strategy, since the *home* team (reich in the case of the cavern map and allies in the case of the house) can just play straightforward (to a certain extent) and own you...

also, we kinda missed quite a few *crucial* rules, like
1) you can't counterattack a melee attack
2) when counterattacking, you use your lowest combat modifier
3) victory points can be used for movement as well

and such which would really make the difference (remember the turn when i was just one step short to nail that guy?)...

another point i've kinda came to realize is that when more than 2 players are involved, the play gets much more interesting since the odds of two people coming up with two different (not neccesarily good) plans that can be used to make a one working plan is irreplacable, and who knows - someone might just come up with a crazy enough thing that can actually work miracles :) if not intentionally, then by pure luck (somewhat like when you put Elsa on that cheesy spot)

anyhows, the game is totally worth it and here's a few suggestions if you're playing allies in the cavern:
John takes Mental pack (screw the flashgun, the colt is more than a decent trade-off)
Barry takes Combat pack (he has a knife, need i say more?)
the Troopers take Combat packs (you don't want them to be in a situation in which they had to use Go-Go anyway)
and Tina (or whatever her name is) can really go with whatever you feel like, just make sure to get the TNT (meaning no custom packing)

so that's my two cents...
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Post by Dawngreeter »

I had a chance to play two games with Rick today and the game absolutely rocks. I expected it to be visually awesome but I never anticipated that the gameplay would be so involving.

The first game was a deathmatch on that underground cavern map and Ze Germans totally blew me off the board (though I did take three of his guys down with me). The main point of tactical fallacy on my part was assuming that the chests are more important than they actually are. They can be nifty, especially if you get Victory Points, but they're nothing to base your strategy around. Which I did.

The second game was a story mode game in the building and it most certainly plays right into the Allied (why are they Allies anyway, they're all American) strong points. In practice, story mode differed very little from the deathmatch, though that's likely my fault. Ze Germans emerged from the staircase, I located two of my gunmen on the far end of the corridor and decided that it's far too good an opportunity to avoid engaging the enemy. Ze German voodoo guy forced my main gunman to approach and, well, things went straight to hell in a handbasket. I managed to resolve one of my primary goals, Ze Germans never resolved either of their objectives and we kinda unintentionally slaughtered each other.

Knowing your equipment and, more importantly, knowing your enemy's equipment goes a long way in this game and I anticipate future games to be much more a calculated tactical exercise and much less a game of shooting stuff up when it seems convenient. And, of course, I'll have to go through the rules a couple of times to clarify a couple of things.

In conclusion, the game has a very much unexpected depth to it. My only criticism might be the fact that the Allies seem much more 'bland' than Ze Germans (and the first standalone 'blister' character to come out later this year is going to be yet another German! What the hell?). Each of the five characters on Ze German side of the game have some or another unique capability that really makes them stand out. On the Allied side, only two characters kinda stand out and as a group they very much come across as simply "guys with rifles". I would enjoy some mystic mambo-jumbo just for the sake of the flavor. However, I also think I like the Allied side a lot more than Ze Germans, for reasons I can neither explain nor fathom. I guess it's that whole seemingly inversed approach to combat tactics where you have to keep your enemy at distance yet close enough to do damage at the same time. And you really do not want that half-demon bastard or the chick with the whip anywhere near your dudes.
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Post by Shark »

oh, but you definately want her whip for your Barry guy... besides, i think Tina (lol, i keep calling her different names each time) will get some mystic navaho magic and whatnots.... but the point stands - each faction will have their own unique *thing* and will stay true to it, no matter what...

so the paratroopers (curent only allied faction) will stay true to their alien tech, and obscura korps will stay true to their demonic lore; the new russian team will stay true to the ancient slavic gods (yay Perun) and tesla-based weaponry/armors... go figure...

as more and more chars get into play, and more maps as well things will only get more complicated and it will make a difference who you take on the team AND what you put in their hands...

so far the mental stat serves no purpose except to resist Von's fear attack but i'm guessing that WILL change over time, so in my oppinion the game isn't unbalanced, its just under-resourced at the time being... but they have everything though out and we'll just integrate every single pack they release right on and with no major rule(s) tweaking which i really hate the most, so it will be more of a catch to find a good use and integrate some new member into your "fantastic four+1" team rather than going on about "oooh, a bazooka, i'll build my whole team around that weapon"... speaking of which - there's currently only one heavy weapon, and it's Barry's special thing... so, like i said - under-resourced at the moment...

on a side note, did you notice the two-sided chest token?? there's a chest token that actually has another chest-token on the other side as well... i'm guessing if it's an error or something, or it's just an empty chest...
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Post by Dawngreeter »

I figured it's an empty chest. Though it makes little difference from the chest which has 0 victory points on the other side. So it's kinda... odd?

I do agree with you that there's a ton of depth we aren't seeing simply because there's nothing to expand the contents of the base box with. And it just occurred to me that I wasn't using smoke grenades and regular grenades nearly as often as I should have. Allied main guy completely ignores the smoke so he's god when a bunch of smoke grenades populate the map. And also, regular grenades make movement more difficult and two marine troopers ignore it completely. I just think you need to be a lot more patient with the Allied sied than with Ze Germans.
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Post by FGSerbia »

Germans in the house,

Shark-boy I think the Germans are cool in the house as well. In the set up I had against DG, Herman had already jinxed the main corridor that bisects the house so that all troops are +1 to combat. Next I had the the nazi chick flanked by the two troopers. Herman would voodoo in a guy where the stosstruppen would then carve him up with 7 attack and +2 hits (for demon claw and dagger). On a counter attack the target number of 7 meant he was pretty difficult to hit back and kill. Next the nazi bird could whip them around her trooper with no chance of counter attack and if they some how lasted that then the shockentruppen would have a mad minute and attack with 6 dice all at +2 to the dice roll. That tactic went through Barry and DGs troopers in a few short rounds.
YES a smoke grenade would have made things unpleasant but if in range the Captain would be the first one I would voodoo.
To me story mode is the same as deathmatch mode in that you do the objectives to get victory points for the fight in stead of hunting down the crates. Given that fact some of the heroes powers of being able to enter via the enemies entrance seem to basically be the ability to commit suicide really quickly. The ability to be able to massively change your team with mercenaries and other characters will definitely add another dimension to the game. Looking forward to it.
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Post by Dawngreeter »

One thing I just noticed that's way too odd for comfort - the Allied black guy's knife. All it does, the entirety of its purpose is to be a hand to hand weapon. Ok, cool, that seems fair, right? Well, the trouble is, what hand to hand weapon does is allow you to use your current combat rating instead of your minimal combat rating. Which the black dude (as well as EVERYONE ELSE) already does without the knife, due to that skill thing. So... why am I carrying the knife around, again?
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Post by FGSerbia »

To chop up your fruit, open cans of beans, cut lengths of rope silly! Why does anyone carry a knife?
I think that will be an errata - Barry's knife should give +1 hits as the strosstrupen's knife does. That's the only thing that makes sense.
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Post by FGSerbia »

Oh - forgot to write earlier - you can't counter a melee attack????!?!?!?!
That's just dumb. It makes the German's even more powerful and they've been kicking yankee butt without that rule in place. Why not just put you can't attack anyone with a Bavarian accent and be done with it? You might as well send in an Indian Unit led by Ghandi.

For those who have not played Tannhauser the American forces in the game are reminiscent of Sergeant Apone, Corporal Hicks and the marines as they search for the terraformers under the outposts cooling towers for the first time in Aliens. GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!!!
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Post by Dawngreeter »

I just looked that up and I've seen nothing to indicate this is true. The only restriction to counterattacking is that you can't counterattack with a grenade or a heavy weapon (so Barry ain't shooting people back unless he's got a gun). What I did see is that counterattacks always use your lowest combat value.
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Post by FGSerbia »

:cry: My head hurts

We made loads of mistakes in the first couple of games and we made several probably in the second load I played. Most FFG games have a FAQ section against them on the website. The rules kind of even themselves out. I mean if you conterattack with you lowest combat value does the Strosstruppen's superstrength counter that as it states he always attacks with his full attack value, why wouldn't counterattack with it when in hand to hand? You can't counterattack with a grenade but can you counterattack a grenade? If so throwing a grenade into a group is TERRIBLE because while it will injure everyone it means that they can ALL counterattack against you if they have the victory points.
What happens when you throw a smoke grenade or jinx an corridor intersection circle? Do all paths fill with smoke or only one? Can units counterattack each attack made against them in a round or only one? Can units heal more than one wound with Victory Points if damaged multiple times in a single round? None of these things detracted from the fun of the game and I can probably guess the answer to all of the questions. If wounded by an attack your counterattack will be weaker - surely this is a big enough advantage, why use the lowest value for a counterattack. The only reason I can think for this is that new abilities or characters will come out that can use their normal values.

GODDAMIT - I now need to go and look on the FFG website and check those questions and I have finish an urgent Flames of War order!!
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Post by Dawngreeter »

Throwing a grenade isn't exactly an attack on another unit. It's an action which results in damage, but not a direct attack so I don't think you can counterattack the process of being damaged by a grenade.

I've looked up rules clarification for smoke grenades and von Klinkerhofen's (or whatever his name is) mambo-jumbo runes and it seems they weren't very precisely translated from French (and they made the game, hence their rules take precedence). The smoke grenade fills with smoke ALL paths that the field you threw it on is a part of. Von Klinkerhofen's runes corrupt just one specific path of your choice. Also, and this is completely missing from the English rules, smoke grenade extends the increased attack penalty not only to the space it was thrown on but to all adjacent spaces as well.

Victory Points are used for healing immediately after surviving the shock roll, so you can use them as many times as you have shock rolls, provided you do not spend more Victory Points that the unit is able to spend per round (one for troops, two for heroes).

EDIT: in regards to Supernatural Strength that the Strosstrupen have, in games like this it is usually assumed that more specific rules override the more general rules if contradictions arise. So I'd say that Strosstrupen counterattack with their highest combat value as per usual.
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Post by FGSerbia »

Whereas I would say that the Supernatural Strength would not matter as interpreted by the 'use minimal value' rule. I can see it shouldn't matter but the concept that FFG must employ is that the counterattack is a nervous retailiation under fire to being attacked hence the lower stat. This shouldn't apply to hand-to-hand where a adrenaline fueled fight to the death is taking place.

In my new Indian squad all units employ the counterattack of 'Passive Karma'. Once shot at or attacked by an enemy they take no action other than to wait. At some point in the future the figure that attacked them will be sat on by a player not paying attention. The figure will then carry on life as a plain plastic token looking miserbale and inspiring no fear. It's a kind of counterattack using negative reincarnation.
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Post by Dawngreeter »

I'm not so sure the rules should be interpreted from the real-life simulation point of view. The counterattack is weaker than the regular attack because a deliberate attack should be something that drives the game strategy. If everyone's bitchslapping everyone else, it kinda has the potential to become a random free-for-all. Not to mention the fact that heroes can potentially counterattack twice per round, which makes a hero in a bulletproof vest a mighty foe, should he be able to counterattack with the same force he would use for a regular attack. I mean, I don't really have an opinion on the subject, I'm just trying to give the rule a possible context.

As far as Supernatural Strength goes, here's how I think the rules would go. First the Strosstrupen is attacked. He does his shock roll and finds himself wounded but alive. At this point he has the option of spending a Victory Point to heal himself, which he decides not to use. Then he has the option to spend a Victory Point to counterattack, which he does. Because he is counterattacking, his attack is downgraded to his lowest combat value for this action. So at the point of his attack, his lowest combat value is the active one. However, choosing a hand to hand attack, his attack is instantly upgraded to his highest combat value. The resolution of Supernatural Strength, then, takes precedence because it comes into play under conditions not governed by the counterattack rule.

It just might be that I've spent way too much time interpreting game rules over the course of my life.
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Post by FGSerbia »

Spending Victory points means that a counterattack is already a risky endeavour - why do it penalised? I think one reason is to extend the game. A strosstruppen can chop his way through quite a few of the Union given the right circumstances (a full moon for example - whoof!!) and given the opprotunity for a 7 dice attack with 2 extra hits against victim #1 in a counter attack and then another 7 dice with 2 extra hits in an actual attack on corpse #2 then he's a bit on the mean side.

I don't like the flash gun rule of 0 btw. Flash Gun's are for girls.
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Post by Dawngreeter »

Oh, we played the flash guns all wrong as well. It doesn't matter how many zeros you roll, rolling ten of 'em and just one yields the same effect - the defender needs one and only one zero to counter the instant kill.

Also, from what I'm reading, you can counterattack Eva's hand to hand whip attack, if she does it from two spaces away, with a close combat (say, handgun) attack. I'll have to check for clarifications but it seems to be the way things work because the nature of the attack does not necessarily dictate the nature of the counterattack.
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Post by FGSerbia »

That heftily weakens Barry's heavy flashgun. Ve are most zatisifed wiv zis.
Most Allies don't carry close combat weapons though....
Hmmm suddenly equipment plays a bigger part.

We're gonna need to play this again. Saturday?
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Post by Dawngreeter »

Yeah, Barry definitely isn't the powerhouse he seemed at first. Now he's just a very decent killing machine, given enough range :D

I'd be very much up for a game this weekend, unless something very odd happens and my work yet again interferes (though at this point, it seems very likely that Friday's my last day of work). Who knows how it'll go when the game is played *gasp* the correct way!
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Post by FGSerbia »

Open call....

Anyone else up for a session?
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Post by Slartibartfast »

I am, definitely. I'm free on weekends.
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Post by FGSerbia »

One thing I just noticed that's way too odd for comfort - the Allied black guy's knife. All it does, the entirety of its purpose is to be a hand to hand weapon. Ok, cool, that seems fair, right? Well, the trouble is, what hand to hand weapon does is allow you to use your current combat rating instead of your minimal combat rating. Which the black dude (as well as EVERYONE ELSE) already does without the knife, due to that skill thing. So... why am I carrying the knife around, again?
Okay - French Rules state that the Hand-to-Hand combat skill (which everyone has) allows melee attacks with the lowest possible combat skill value and a hand-to-hand weapon is needed to use your normal value (ie barry's knife). If you didn't have the Hand-to-Hand combat skill you wouldn't be allowed to fight in melee at all.

OK - French rules win on this one I think.
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Post by Dawngreeter »

That certainly makes a lot more sense. I love FFG but they really screwed up with Tannhauser translation.
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Post by mladjano bugarce »

I am in for weekend game of tannhauser.
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Post by FGSerbia »

and then there were 4....

my place? 7pm? Saturday?
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Post by Shark »

ok, i've read your posts and just to say my stuff:
1) you can't attack more than once and you can't counterattack a counterattack (so you can counterattack as many times as you have VPs, if you survive that is)
2) when counterattacking, you use your lowest stats ignoring the abilities (which only apply if you're wounded)
3) you cannot counterattack melee attacks
4) Hand-to-Hand skills says that if you have it - you use your current attack instead of the lowest one; so that works for both the attacker and the defender... currently there are no HTHless characters so yeah - it works just like normal combat, but there's bound to be some though...
5) nope, barry's knife does nothing... sad but true; on the other hand - you lose nothing if you take the S&W gun, Super Strength and the grenade/medkit combo... if you've read the HTH weapon descs, you'd see that they state "and some even give bonuses to attack" meaning not all knives give bonuses...

6) this one is REALLY important - hermeticas are invoked during the Action Phase and are "spendable", meaning you have to spend it on a certain path and that's it, while Von Heizinger is alive it's there and once he dies - it perishes with him... meaning no more "we all get +1 if we're on the same path as heizinger" and yes, it means spending your Action Phase on the invocation as well...

i was actually looking through the rules now and i couldn't find the thing that said "you can't counterattack melee" but i know i've read that somewhere in there...

on a sidenote, they have started releasing tokens (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/tannh ... okens.html) so can someone just mass-produce them or each of us will have to make his own copy? i'm asking because i kinda suck at that and my printer's broken :P what i don't get is - if you want to use this item, you have to pick it which would mean he doesn't get the amulet?
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Post by FGSerbia »

3) you cannot counterattack melee attacks
No one else I know has come across that rule. I am sure that is not the case.
4) Hand-to-Hand skills says that if you have it - you use your current attack instead of the lowest one; so that works for both the attacker and the defender... currently there are no HTHless characters so yeah - it works just like normal combat, but there's bound to be some though...
Agreed BUT the French rules state that the Hand-to-Hand skill means that you get an attack with lowest combat value and no hand-to-hand skill means that you can't fight hand-to-hand at all. While I appreciate it doesn't state that in the FFG rules I think the french rules are better. Thus Barry's knife has some value (either that or change it to be the same as the Reich's knife)
2) when counterattacking, you use your lowest stats ignoring the abilities (which only apply if you're wounded)
Ok - have you read that or is that your opinion as I've not seen that anywhere.
BTW you around on saturday?
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Post by FGSerbia »

The eye of horus token is rubbish anyway - I wouldn't give up Heizinger's amulet for that.
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Post by Dawngreeter »

I'll have to cancel my appearance tomorrow. The Sunday seems to be a deadline to end all deadlines and, well... What can I say. One thing's for sure, ain't no way in hell I'll be doing freelance coding any time soon.
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Post by Dawngreeter »

Oh, and also, the "Token of the Month" items do NOT count as using equipment outside your package. That means Von Klinkerhoffen's amulet isn't going anywhere, you just take one token from your chosen package and replace it with the Eye of Horus. Which makes it a lot more useful, obviously.

As you can guess, this is from the French rules. I don't think we should even bother with English rules anymore, honestly. I'm just hoping there'll be fan-made translations soon.
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Post by Shark »

yeah, i've actually read the French rules myself and they rule... plus - there's no "you can't counterattack melee" crap in it either (actually, it's not in the english rules either) so we could get those translated if anyone is good with frenh (except me) or we could just give them to an official translation person :P

on the topic of Unnatural Strength, the skill clearly states "in case of wounding" and the counterattack rule says that you ignore stuff like extra ammo, mad minute and your abilities (or i just made up something again?)

FFG sucks when it comes to rules really... i'm kinda surprised that Starcraft rules actually look good :) but i guess that WILL change once you actually play a game...

as for saturday's (today's) game - i might come if you answer my email regarding the meeting spot/time :)
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Slartibartfast
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Post by Slartibartfast »

Sorry, I'm canceling also. Hopefully, I won't have any more... sudden exams after this week.
Shark
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Post by Shark »

so yet again, it was supposed to be five but we were down to three... oh well, we had a nice game anyway and Tikal was also fun :)
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FGSerbia
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Post by FGSerbia »

3 things came out of the game;

1) Tannhauser is deeply tactical game of chess that requires both patience and forethought.

2) Luck is still the factor that can tilt a close game, and makes it ultimately well balanced and very playable.

3) Whichever game we play from now on - I'm on Bojan's side.
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Post by Dawngreeter »

I had yet another game of Tannhauser when a friend came over to keep me company while I was trying to survive this flu thing (or at least I hope it's just a flu :? ). One thing jumped up at me that I never noticed before.

I was, naturally, playing Allies. I figured, hey, smoke grenades are my unique shtick so let's use them as much as possible. As the rules state, smoke grenades lower your current Combat and Stamina rating. Period. No ifs about it, while you're in smoke, your combat rating is lower. That means that not only do you use less dice when shooting other people, people shooting at you have lower difficulty rating. I had just one in-smoke shot with McNeal and it was absolutely monstrous. 6 dice at difficulty three, with additional bonus success. And the guy taking all that had just two stamina dice to roll against my regular combat rating of 6 ('cause of McNeal's goggles). Afterwards, Ze Germans had the good sense of staying the fuck away from smoke.

One other thing caught me off-guard. I never fully internalized the fact that Victory Points define who wins in the end, even in story mode. We were playing the building map and I was ahead in terms of kills made, damage done, territory covered... Ze Germans managed to get all their Primary objectives one turn before I was able to finish them all (mostly because I was maybe too focused on shooting at Ze Germans) and at that point I glance at the Victory Points... I was at 2 while Ze Germans were at 7! Ok, two were Eva's bonus point so that's effectively 5. Holy cows. All I can say is, healing and counter-attacking is something I will think twice before using next time.

Oh, and I figured out that using VPs for extra movement is by far the best use for them. Sometimes you're just one space away from a clear shot with your heavy gun at OZO and, by gods, that shot needs to be taken.
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Post by Shark »

ok so here's the thing - i asked a french friend to help me out with the rules and here's what he had to say

Code: Select all

    Ok, I checked the English and French rules and
there's actually no real difference except the
Hand-to-Hand Skills (and I suspect it to be a bug ...
see below for explanation)

   So here are the difference I found (mostly
interpretation bias) :
   - Paragraph II. 2. (What is an action Circle) the
French actually state that an event should occur when
a character stand beside an action circle where the
English rules only speaks of the case of opening a
crates ... No big deal but I think I should mention
it.
   - Paragraph V. 1. Special Rules. The English rules
allow the first or second skill check for a Primary
Objectives to be bought (but not BOTH of them, though)
while the French rules only allow the second skill
check to be bought this way (which mean you have to
wait for a Character with one of the required skill
before a Heroes with neither skills could attempt a
skill check) This one is the only real rules
difference IMHO. Either rules could make sense, so use
the one you prefer.

     That's it.
     Now about the Hand-to-Hand skills. French rules
state that you CAN'T attack an adjacent enemy without
this skills or a Hand-to-Hand weapon ... Seems pretty
dumb as any fighter worth this name should be able to
punch into the face of his enemies if needed
(especially since he behave like having the skills
when defending ... and if he can't use its fists it
means he probably can't use a knife either without
hurting himself !) What make me think it's a bug is
the second example page 17 which is the same in the
French and English rules. Which means that either the
French characters have not the same skills as the
English one or that the English rules are actually the
right one.
      So I think that Hand-to-Hand skills is reserved
to a very few Elite who knos how to badly hurt someone
bare-handed. As for the usefulness of the knife it is
simply to allow a non Hand-to-Hand specialist to fight
without malus. The Hand-to-Hand specialist indeed gain
no benefit from using it (but they can free an
equipment space this way) or they should use better
Hand-to-Hand weaponry like Combat Knife (they are
supposing to kick ass in Hand-to-Hand after all !) You
can make a House rules that increase the result bonus
of a Hand-to-Hand sepcialist by one when using a
Hand-to-Hand weapon, though.
      But everything depends on whether or not the
Hand-to-Hand skills is common or not. If nearly
everyone have it, you should use the French rules (so
you can't attack withotu a weapon, and I would even
add teh house rules that using a HtH weapons only
allow you to use your lowest Combat value since you
are worthless at fighthing at close quarter anyway,
but they still afford some result bonus if they have
some) But if only a few chosen characters have the HtH
skills, then the English rules are the one to use (and
the one the one the game designer intended to use from
the example on page 17)

     Hope it helps. If you have any other question or
want somemore explanation/advice on something (or even
another game) just let me know :)

                    Chris aka the 'NotSoHot'Liner ;)
so there you have it... i'm still voting for our house rule of "having HtH skill lets you attack in melee with lowest CV while having a HtH weapon lets you attack with current CV" :)
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Post by FGSerbia »

And the award for the most dedicated rules lawyer goes to .....
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Post by Ko, jel' ja? »

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