Is it broken/should we nerf it?

[FGSerbia]

This thread appears on EVERY OTHER forum on the planet so I thought I should start it here even though it exists within other threads here but not (as far as I can tell) in its own right.

The nationals were pretty much dominated by eVlad and very similar lists whether at 750pts or 1000pts. It's the 2nd year running. So is he broken? Do we need to scale back on him or get broken models for other factions?
On the PP forum (and others) this topic really gets players incensed and I think this is because there are 2 arguments that are realistically both right and both valid while being totally opposed.
1) The game should be utterly balanced - thus a Karchev Warjack army should be able to beat
an eVlad infantrymachine army if the player is better. Now having never played eVlad or Khador I'm sure I would lose to an experienced Khador player that is well experienced with Kharchev. But that's not the point - this player would be 'dumming down'. What the nationals show is that given expert players of probably similar ability eVlad is by far the strongest Warcaster.
2) Each faction has "alpha casters" and of course in tournaments these are going to be brought. The art of the game is to develop the best army and play competitively with combos and just because eVlad was on top it actually means that the best players were attracted to him. The people complaining could have always brought eVlad and played him or practised against him and found ways to beat him.

I see both aguments. Nerf eVlad and then (let's say) Goreshade becomes the broken one. Take him down and it becomes the Old Witch. Get her and it's the Harbinger etc etc etc but is there something to toning down certain warcasters and toning up others? More importantly is there something about this particular model that is more broken than the rest?

Now I play the underdogs. I also like playing the underdogs. Cygnar (weakest WM faction),
Highborn Covenant (too weak to even be classed a faction) and Trollbloods (arguably the
weakest Hordes faction). I do this because I like the models and like the fluff. I don't mind expecting to lose against stronger armies because it is nice when I win. I would not go to a tournament expecting to win against any of the stronger players. But I do like competitve games and having played against a lot of factions playing against eVlad is soul destroying. It was the only time I felt that no matter what I did or how lucky my rolls were - I was powerless to compete. I put forward my strongest Trollblood army and was nuked by Uhlans and a Drakhun and Manhunter under feat. I think I was actually defeated by about 300 points worth of models against my 750. I didn't enjoy that game and would rather not play against eVlad again. It is a terrible thing to have to say to my opponent "if you're going to play eVlad - I'd rather watch a DVD instead". In Prime - Bile Thralls were cut back, Haley's temporeal barrier was cut back. Just one change to his feat 'a D3+3 models within 4" of Vlad gain the following bonuses...' would be a simple enough fix. I do think that having a great warrior model with an amazing feat and 7 focus (thus 14" on Feat Range) for only 9 more points than Grim Angus (and 16 points less than Kharchev!!) is ridiculous. OK, lets not nerf the character but lets start putting things into perspective, points are based on stats etc but eVlad makes any warrior unit worth SO many more points and everyone (even PP) knows infantrymachine is so much stronger than Warjacks and Hordes. Can't we assess the points cost of models on actually how good they are rather than what their SPD, MAT and ARM is? Isn't this common sense? It would be really interesting to see what the semi finals of the hardcore tournament would be without eVlad. Would they be dominated by a single warcaster or would there actually be a variety. I've lost to Goreshade, The Old Witch, Skarre and plenty of other powerful Warcasters but I did feel in all those cases that if I had played better I may have had a chance. Having 4 or 5 powerful warcasters that are rolled out at tournaments and could win is one thing, having a single warcaster that is rolled out and (at least with the current selection of models) is guarenteed to win is another.

[arborsomniorum]

imo JUST PRICE UP the point cost of eVlad. So if he costs 84, now it cost is 130 points...

In that way, you'll have to drop out one unit, so it'll be easier to play against him...

But then you'll have to price up every other warcaster who will be then the best.

Another way is to calculate the FAIR points of your army. For example, you can put max 50 points worth of army in FAIR points. So calculate Fair points for every unit, solo, jack and caster in the game, and then in the Sigil tournament, everyone should play with pretty fair armies. For instance, you could say that Cryx Satyxis Raiders is worth 3 Fair points, but Vilmon is worth 10. Or eVlad is worth 25, and every good unit in Khador is worth 10.

But that requires enormous amount of time needed to calculate the FAIR points for every PP product, and to be balanced then.

[Dzon Vejn]

Rick, siguran sam da ce te Sunka sada uputiti na onu stranu pravila, gde pise da ne treba da se kuka .

Ja sa svojih 15 godina iskustva u igrama mogu samo da kazem da, sta god da smisle, koja god pravila da napisu, dokle god imas veliki broj kobinacija i statistika modela, sigurno ce biti i "rupa" u pravilima. Tako je u warhammeru, tako je u 40k, tako je u hordes, tako je u WM, tako ce biti i u svim drugim igrama.

Pa sta ti onda preostaje?

Ako si igrac: uvek mozes reci "OK, ja necu da igram protiv toga i toga.... imam pametnija posla... recimo da brisem prasinu sa knjiga".

Ako si organizator turnira: uvek mozes reci "OK, ovaj turnir se igra bez tog, tog, tog i tog karaktera / unita / cega god". Da, znam, cuce se: "E ali onda ce ovaj biti jaci?". Da, pa sta? U svim igrama nije problem imati jaku army listu, problem je kada se protivnik smori kao zmaj, igrajuci protiv te liste.

Uvek ce postojati situacija u kojoj ce lista A biti bolja od liste B. Bitno je samo da onaj koji igra sa listom B ima osecaj da, barem samo uz pomoc srece, moze da pobedi listu A.

[Pendargon]

The problem with E-Vlad lies in the fact that you don't know where form the death comes. And answer is.... it comes from every direction. He makes EVERY model in your army totally able to kill your caster, without much effort. Manhunters-check
Drakhun-check
Kayazy and underboss-check
Uhlans-check
Widowmakers-check
Iron fangs-check

With others, you can nticipate at least a little :
Denny : don't let the node come within 8
Goreshade - do not let trooper run into your caster
Skarre - stay out of bomb's reach
Old Witch - do not go into woods. Refrain from using smoke
Haley - avoid TB at all costs. Expect things to die when entering.
Godmode harbinger - provoke as much martyrdom as possible, she'll have to let go. Use continuosu effects.
Saeryn - be prepared to duck angelius under feat
Magnus- Disable at least one obliterator rocket early in the game
etc, etc...
But with Vlad, thera are too many threats. And it's so easy that you do not even have to have a brain to use it... All the things that were so gamebraking got CHANGED, and there are only 3 instances where PP did this : bile thrall purge, Haley's TB, and Sorsha's feat. I expect EVlad's feat to be reduced to something like : they get +3 to all stats.
That's all.
No additional attacks, no extra damage die. That would solve the problem instantly, (sort of like Sorsha's feat, that now requires line of sight...)

[arborsomniorum]

That is great idea...

[Pavlik Vladansson]

Heh, Cygnar is the weakest WM faction? Figures...
I didn't pick it because it's weakest, it's weakest because I picked it! :lol:

[Shunka]

I also think they should nerf it a bit.
But it just makes me wonder why didn't they do it when they changed it for the first time, making it exclude characters...

Though I'm not convinced it is that easy and brainless. Maybe that's just because I never played the Dark Champion.

[FGSerbia]

This is why I think if you simply state that models within 4" of the caster are affected at least you can anticipate. As Dule puts it simply have any of these as part of a three pronged attack and it's game over. Those being widowmakers and a drakhun on one side, Uhlans in the middle and yuri and 2 manhunters on the other, Fenris and a unit of Doomreavers somewhere. Any and all of these models under feat are insanely brutal. Hell, even box standard troops become uber. If eVlad had to be within a couple of inches you could make it much more difficult. Put up swamps, brick up, place forests, etc etc etc
As stated in a previous post I think that eKaya might soon be the queen of assassinations and with the movement potential of laris and her feat this could really be a nightmare to get round in Hardcore but it would be a one trick pony against experienced players that would take action against accordingly.

Tako je u warhammeru, tako je u 40k, tako je u hordes, tako je u WM, tako ce biti i u svim drugim igrama.

I know and I am a great advocate of "if you want an even game stick to chess" but there's a difference between stronger and can't win. After the feat if the caster/lock is still alive then the opponent is left with the shattered semblance of an army and the Khador force is pretty much untouched.

Dule you forgot;
Borka - don't get within 5" of him turn your back, lie down and send your army off to the other side of the board. You do that and he might, just might hurt you. Slightly.

Heh, Cygnar is the weakest WM faction?

After the Turtle got squashed Cygnar never really had an uber caster. Don't get me wrong a unit of trenchers and a unit of Long Gunners has won me many a game. Stryker is excellent, Brisbane is excellent, eHaley is excellent but a lot of Cygnar stuff is anti-jack (disruption and the like) and now no-one uses jacks in tournaments. In friendly games Cygnar more than hold their own.

[Dzon Vejn]

Tako je u warhammeru, tako je u 40k, tako je u hordes, tako je u WM, tako ce biti i u svim drugim igrama.

I know and I am a great advocate of "if you want an even game stick to chess" but there's a difference between stronger and can't win. After the feat if the caster/lock is still alive then the opponent is left with the shattered semblance of an army and the Khador force is pretty much untouched.

Uvek ce postojati situacija u kojoj ce lista A biti bolja od liste B. Bitno je samo da onaj koji igra sa listom B ima osecaj da, barem samo uz pomoc srece, moze da pobedi listu A.

This is exactly what I'm talking about ....

[Pendargon]

his is why I think if you simply state that models within 4" of the caster are affected at least you can anticipate.

That doesn't solve the problem... allow me to demonstrate :
13 inches 12.5 inches through terrain
V===========m=========y

Now, imagine V being EVlad, M being mahunter/kayazy/widowmaker/drakhun, and y being your caster.
Vlad charges whatever, feats, kills you with m (whatever M may be). It does not solve the problem. They need to take away "extra attack, extra dice" thing from his feat. Then it becomes just strong, not gamebreaking...

[Resurrection]

Treba da uvedu pravilo da eVlad ne moze da ima arknodove

[mladjano bugarce]

Voleo bi da vidim E vlada - ,mislim da su hordasi ok protiv njega posebno everblight i orboros. Trebalo bi razumeti kako vlad radi - on ubija protivnicke kastere koristeci svoje trupe ili soloe.

ja bi Vlada stavio na ignore i skoncentrisao se na ubijanje njegovih drugara. Pri tome bi i drakuna stavio na ignore.

[arborsomniorum]

To mi je mnogo modela za ignore, jer ta dva mogu da ubiju dva debela jacka po potezu... Zar ne...

[Resurrection]

To mi je mnogo modela za ignore, jer ta dva mogu da ubiju dva debela jacka po potezu... Zar ne...

Mnogo sto sta moze da ubije dva džeka debela po potezu ako ih metes na tacnu

Po meni su tu najgori windows makeri jer mogu da te upucavaju iz daleka dok ispred svega ostalog mozes da bacas leseve svoje i tudje da zaklonis charge lane.

Kukacu kad budem igrao protivu toga, sad me ne brine

[arborsomniorum]

Slazem se da mnogo sta moze da ubije dva jacka po potezu, ali ovo dvoje mogu da ubiju dva jacka po potezu,i prezive, pa opet dva jacka, prezive, pa sledeci potez skoro cele pune dve jedinice, pa opet prezive, pa onda jos dva jacka, i tako u nedogled, ili dok se ne pobije sve na tabli.

Nebitno totalno, nego sta ce biti sa turnirom, ionako se igra u pet stotina poena, pa e-Vlad ce samo tuzno gledati izdaleka sve borbe. Morate malo bolje izvestiti, koja pravila, sta i kako, kako bismo se skupili.

[Shunka]

Pa Rick kaze da hoce prvo da zna koliko ce ljudi doci. Ni meni nije jasno sta je tacno smislio. Cimaj njega, niko drugi ne moze nista da uradi po pitanju tog turnira.

[mladjano bugarce]

ja bi turnir igrao u 750 pena. Ostavis e. vlada na miru on sam ne moze nista i drakhuna zato sto da bi ga se resio moras potrositi previse resursa.

[Pendargon]

ja bi turnir igrao u 750 pena.

I ja bih, ali onda bi igralo nas 6-7. Imamo poprilicno igraca, bar jedno njih 5-6 koji imaju otprilike tacno za 500, +- pedesetak poena. Na 500 cemo imati vise ljudi, a vise ljudi > veci fun...

[Shunka]

Pa Rick ima neku ideju da podeli turnir u vise razlicitih kategorija koje bi se odvijale u razlicitim vremenima... Ja sam isto za to da svi igraju u 500 poena.
Ako ne, a ono eto 750 Khadora ili Skorne od mene.

Takodje mislim da turnire (makar omanje) treba odrzavati na 2 meseca. Kao sto smo imali u Confrontationu. Meni je to bilo super.

[Mind Uploader]

Ja, npr. trenutno imam samo 400pts Khadora sada u rukama... Bez obzira sto tehnicki posedujem oko 650pts figura...
Tako da sam pre za neki turnir u 500pts. Ali generalno podrzavam ideju da se igraju turniri i u 750. Samo prvo treba oformiti bazu od preko 10 ljudi sa armijama te poentaze, da bi se zapravo pojavilo minimum 8 ljudi.
A mislim da ce se to brzo desiti posto moze sto-sta da se izpozajmljuje (ja npr. mogu da pozajmim figure i od Bojana i od Sunke a mislim da i ostalima nije frka da se malo ispozajmljuju)...

Inace, uveo bih neko pravilo o ofarbanosti... Nema ucesca sa figurama na kojima se ne razaznaje u razlicitim bojama sta je plast, sta je mac a sta lice... Stvarno je ruzno gledati one nesrecne gomilice metala koje nikada nece zapravo postati modeli...

@EDIT@ Slazem se sa Sunkom... Dva meseca je prava merka za turnir... Moze npr. sledeca dva turnira u 500 pa onda jedan u 750, pa tako u krug... A onda u zavisnosti od razvoja dogadjaja moze i neki turnir u parovima, 2X500 protiv 2X500... To bi tek bila zezancija...

[Resurrection]

meni svejedno ali kako uglavnom i igramo na 500 poena me bi se snasli na 750 izjedared i kao sto Dule rece, mnogi od nas su siromasni modelima (i duhom) za takav podvig

...

Inace, uveo bih neko pravilo o ofarbanosti... Nema ucesca sa figurama na kojima se ne razaznaje u razlicitim bojama sta je plast, sta je mac a sta lice... Stvarno je ruzno gledati one nesrecne gomilice metala koje nikada nece zapravo postati modeli...

Podrzavam dok god je neko voljan da mi farba modele za dz posto je to deo hobija koji me ne interesuje niti mi smeta sto imam srebrne cikice
Ofarbani ili ne meni ce i dalje raditi iste one stvari koje pisu na kartama. Unless red ones go faster!

[Mind Uploader]

Podrzavam dok god je neko voljan da mi farba modele za dz posto je to deo hobija koji me ne interesuje niti mi smeta sto imam srebrne cikice
Ofarbani ili ne meni ce i dalje raditi iste one stvari koje pisu na kartama. Unless red ones go faster!

Taj stav mi je totalno nejasan. Sta ce ti onda figure? Uzmes postolja, odstampas slike figura, zalepis ih uspravno na postolja. I dalje rade sve sto pise na kartici. A cak je i lakse raspoznati sta je sta.
Mogu da shvatim da tebe licno ne zanima farbanje, ali jako je ruzno igrati se sa srebrnim letacima. Ima dece po hobi storu i grifonu koja naplacuju farbanje po 100-150din... To je next to nothing, pogotovo za warmachine sa svojih 20-ak figura po armiji. Kvalitet je relativno los ali makar je ofarbano da se vidi sta je sta. Deo cele price sa warmachine-om i slicnim igrama je i farbanje, zato i postoje "one druge" igre sa prepainted plastikom, gde nema farbanja. Kada odlucis da igras ovako nesto moras racunati i na farbanje. Model nije gotov i spreman za igru dok nije sklopljen i ofarban. Musa, drugar iz Grifona je sebi farbao orkove za Confrontation. Farbao ih je blago ocajno, samo je nanosio osnovne boje (zelena koza, braon gunj, srebrna sekira, braon drska od sekire...). Ali je imao ofarbane figure. Bottom line je - nije bitno KAKO su ofarbane figure, nema potrebe da dajes silne pare za farbanje, samo kupi 4 osnovne boje (u slucaju kadora to su:crvena, braon srebrna i boja kozhe) i crni auto lak i za 5 dana rada (da, moras uloziti i nesto napora) upristoji armiju da se vidi gde je oklop, gde oruzije a gde ruke i lice.
Zamisli da svi izvodimo samo srebrne letace, koji se biju na terenu koji je neofarban roze stirodur sa belim flekama od PVA lepka, na kariranom kafanskom stolnjaku... Jednostavno to nije to.

Nemoj ovo shvatiti kao flame, stvarno ne mislim nista ruzno, jednostavno, deo hobija je farbanje. Nemam nista protiv da se kao i u hobi storu organizuju turniri za pocetnike na kojima je dozvoljeno voditi neofarbane i/ili proxy armije, ali mislim da je nedopustivo dozvoliti na bilo kom "ozbiljnijem" turniru na koji ce doci ljudi sa strane da gledaju, da se igra sa srebnim letacima.

Oh, well, mozda sam samo ja preveliki geek pa volim da igram protiv ljudi sa pristojno ofarbanim armijama...

Back to the topic, mislim da Vlada treba malo "skresati" ali to mislim i za dosta drugih stvari... Ali imam neki cudan osecaj da je on prvi u nizu kastera trece generacije koji ce da cine cuda unaokolo i koji se tek spremaju da izadju kao "pokusaj balansiranja"... Tj. kupite sledece nove figure...

@EDIT@
Upravo pogledah na PP sajtu... Pravila za steamroller turnire:

"Armies do not have to be fully painted, although there will be prizes for "Best Painted Army" and a random prize draw for players with fully painted forces."

Steta, mislim da ovo zavrsava razmisljanje u tom pravcu... Ali ipak bih voleo da sto cesce vidjam lepo ofarbane armije na suprotnoj strani stola...

[Pendargon]

Postoje 2 forme turninra u PP : Hardcore i steamroller. U Hardcore formatu SVE figure moraju da budu ofarbane (izmedju ostalog, to je jedan od prerekvizita, kao i timed krugovi i statijaznam...
U steamrolleru ne moraju...Generalno, Hardcore se smatra prestiznijim...

[Slartibartfast]

Uzmes postolja, odstampas slike figura, zalepis ih uspravno na postolja. I dalje rade sve sto pise na kartici. A cak je i lakse raspoznati sta je sta. ... Deo cele price sa warmachine-om i slicnim igrama je i farbanje, zato i postoje "one druge" igre sa prepainted plastikom, gde nema farbanja. Kada odlucis da igras ovako nesto moras racunati i na farbanje. Model nije gotov i spreman za igru dok nije sklopljen i ofarban.

Ja bih rado igrao prepainted Warmachine/Hordes, ali avaj.
Ne volim da igram sa neofarbanim modelima, ali zaista nemam zivaca, umeca, volje niti vremena da se time bavim.
Problem je u tome "samo neka bude ofarbano". Ja cu rado dati koliko treba para da figure izgledaju dobro, ali je glupo penalizovati coveka koji bi pre da ima srebrninu nego da plati nekom klincu par hiljada dinara da mu unisti figure.

ALI, sa druge strane, ako vec imas para za figure i vremena za turnire, verovatno imas i para ili vremena za farbanje. Tako da se ne slazem ni sa jednim.

[Dawngreeter]

...i zato se meni ponovo javljaju ideje da je AT-43 igra koju bih igrao. Odnosno neigrao malo manje nego sto neigram Hordes.

[Mind Uploader]

ALI, sa druge strane, ako vec imas para za figure i vremena za turnire, verovatno imas i para ili vremena za farbanje. Tako da se ne slazem ni sa jednim.

Moj covek! :D

Salu na stranu, ja sam odavno za to da se turniri igraju svakog meseca, ali da budu podeljeni po tezini...
Tipa:
Januar - turnir za pocetnike, igra se u 350pts, figure ne moraju da budu ofarbane. Ozbiljniji igraci sude i pomazu oko pravila. Naravno, mogu i da se igraju, ali ovo takmicenje bi bilo smatrano nizerazrednim.
Februar - standardni turnir, igra se u 500pts, figure ne moraju da budu ofarbane.
Mart - pokazni turnir na nekom mestu van sigila (kao sto je HS radio, i mislim da im je to bila dobra ideja), igra se u 500pts, figure moraju da budu ofarbane.
April - "profi" turnir, za igrace koji warmachine smatraju sportom poput saha i ulozili su nekoliko stotina eura i par nedelja zivota (ili dodatnih par stotina evra) na kupovinu i farbanje svojih minijatura. Igra se u 750 do 1000pts i ulazi u rangiranje za titulu gospodara galaksije... Pobeda na turniru donosi razne benefite u obliku suck-up miniona... :D :D :D
... I tako u krug sa mogucim izmenama...
Cini mi se da bi ovo poprilicno svima odgovaralo... Osim Sigilcima koji bi to morali da organizuju. Ali valjda zele da razviju igru koju prodaju?

[Shark]

slazhem se za farbanje, al kod mene prioritet kinte uvek imaju nove figure... shta ostane posle kupovine toga - mozhe da ide choveku koji tje ih ofarbati jbg, plati pa se klati ... da ne pricham shto je greota da lepe figure ne budu i lepo ofarbane uz to :D

Vlad je ok, do 500 poena ne dirash ni njega ni drakhuna, dok na vishe mozhda i mozhesh da odvojish neshto da ih bije, al ti se opet ne isplati ... then again, shta ja znam

a shta kazhete za neki coop turnir? that could be fun npr 2x500 ili 2x750 poena na isto tolko sa druge strane?

[arborsomniorum]

Malo ste se odaljili od teme, ali ajd i ja da dodam ponesto...

Ofarbane armije su kul... Nije da mi se zbog neofarbane armije manje igra WM, ali volim da vidim lepo ofarbane figure, sa druge strane stola, veci je utisak same partije...

No mi novosadisti, smo se odlucili da idemo na tur, pa cemo nas cetvorica se naci kod mene, ove nedelje, i krenuti u farbojadisanje... Posto znam da farbam prilicno dobro, objasnicu i ostalima, da za farbanje nije potrebno umece, vec da je za farbanje figura u striking stilu, iskljucivo potrebna tehnika. A to se uci kroz ponavljanje.

Eto Novosadisti dolaze sa ofarbanim stvarima.

[Knight]

Moje skromno misljenje je da ne treba dirati nista od pravila; PP ce vremenom menjati pravila odredjenih modela ako ucine igru nezanimljivom. Postojanje Vlada i slicnih 'jednostavnih' kastera kao uostalom i modela je neophodno da bi se privukao odredjen segment igraca. U rukama spretnog stratega taj Ruski paket izgleda nepobedivo ali ima sasvim dovoljno nacina da se prevazidje - dajte mi npr. Denny Cryx i odracu Vlada zivog - a pritom jos nismo videli sta ce se desiti sa uplivom novih modela iz Legendsa.

Meni licno takav tip armije nikada ne bi bio zanimljiv za igru; Ista prica kao i sa SkarreBomb armijom koje sam se otarasio posle 1 odigrane partije, mozes bukvalno na papiru ispisati uputstvo sta ces raditi svaki potez.

Apropo ofarbanosti: Ne bih voleo da obeshrabrimo nove igrace uslovljavajuci ih time da vreme trose na farbanje umesto na igranje! Frigure bi trebalo da budu ofarbane jer to doprinosi ugodjaju ali to nije prerekvizit (evo primera zasto je mesanje 2 jezika neophodnost ponekad prerequisite zvuci booolje) I odgovorno tvrdim da posle dovoljno odigranih partija svaki igrac prikupi ofarbane modele. Uzmimo za primer Duleta, koji se jedno godinu dana igrao srebrnim letacima a onda ih je sve ofarbao u rekordnom roku A Nikica koji se javlja par postova iznad polako ali sigurno farba modele, doduse u Sunkinoj reziji ali kranji rezultat je isti.Ono sto bi bilo sjajna ideja je da se igracima da neki motiv da farbaju svoje modele, u smislu npr neke nagradice za novoofarbanu armiju.

I da , turnire nikada ne bih delio po 'tezini'. ALi bih vrlo rado igrao tematske dogadjaje, npr 350 pts mangled metal, 1-1-1-1 (jack unit solo merc) i tako dalje i tako dalje...

[arborsomniorum]

Ono sto bi bilo sjajna ideja je da se igracima da neki motiv da farbaju svoje modele, u smislu npr neke nagradice za novoofarbanu armiju.

Stvarno jeste sjajna ideja. Bravo, nego da se nazove nagrada za trud.

[Dzon Vejn]

Knight je u pravu... dok sam igrao, farbao sam polako modele. Onda sam pauzirao neko vreme sa WM (pretezno zbog previse obaveza koje mi nisu dozvoljavale slobodno vreme). Pre neki dan sam odigrao par partija, i sutradan ofarbao jednog konja, danas farbam drugog . Polepio sam odlepljene figure, i prime-ovao vecinu (priprema za farbu).

[Shunka]

Pre neki dan sam odigrao par partija

Cujem da si maltretirao Ines

[Dzon Vejn]

Pre neki dan sam odigrao par partija

Cujem da si maltretirao Ines

Pa sad ko je koga maltretirao....

[Shunka]

Da preformulisem - tvoji zli Meniti su maltretirali njen jadan Pedjin Signar?

[Dzon Vejn]

Razumeo sam te i prvi put ... Da ja opet pojasnim:

Njeni signari su mucili moje menothe, iako se zna da su menothovci jaci, bolji, veci, i sve ostalo :P